mac vs pc

Minisweeper

Right, so now i've got your attention using an age-old net argument.... But seriously, with as little bias as possible, what do i lose out on with the pc->mac switch? I guess this is a pretty vague question but i'm almost completely new to macs and the way they work. Anyone fancy lending me theirs for a while?

3stripe

mini, i'm about to do the same :-) some issues for me... 1. seems much harder to get hold of (arghhmmm) software for the mac. 2. also i'm pretty clueless about how to tweak things behind the (aqua) scenes - whilst on xp i will quite happily use regedit or whatever to adjust stuff. however from using a mac at work it seems there are plenty of progs you can get for os x to help with this. 3. hah... no right click! well there is if you have a mighty mouse but i've never used one so don't know if they do the same thing..

Minisweeper

yeah thats another thing, on the mouse front, i assume i can use my bluetooth mouse, right?

3stripe

4. very very very small chance of ever getting a virus or spyware on a mac. this is a huge plus point, having just spent 4 hours this morning trying to remove spyware off my pc laptop.

LoOkOuT

"what do i lose out on with the pc->mac switch?" Viruses Service Packs Harsh DRM (Vista?) Beige boxes Games (but you'll only notice if you're a heavy gamer) You can use your bluetooth mouse, or an apple bluetooth set or a mighty mouse And if you have the patience to wait, and this depends on what kind of machine you need, then you can wait unitl the first mactel machines come out (minis first through to powermacs is the guess, beginning 2006) then you can run windows if you can't get your head around OS X. But that's not likely to happen, because I'm sure you'll love it! Out of the box, you'll gain: A beautiful machine and operating system (right through the lineup) System security Unix core Great apps (Safari; iLife) Great community, including share/freeware developers Macs tend to hold their value better, when you go to sell on and upgrade See macrumors.com, where there is a great community and also a new wiki system called Mac Guides, where you can learn lots

Minisweeper

thats another thing, when you say unix core, what exactly do you mean? i have a debian dedicated server running atm, how much of that will be similar? mactel is a pretty gay name. I'll probably be waiting till '06 but when i do invest it'l almost certainly be in the laptop range (ibook more specifically - as discussed in my laptops thread) - when will these be 'mactel'd? And as for the software, how hard is it to get "(arghhmmm) software"?

LoOkOuT

Underlying OS X is Darwin, which is based on BSD Unix. You can open the Terminal app and run all the regular Unix commands at any time.

See the Apple site:
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/

And there's some interesting things in the entry at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X

And more here:
http://www.architosh.com/news/2001-03/2001-0326-osxcore-1.phtml

Mactel is not necessarily an "official" tag, by any means, just something people have applied. Maybe they'll call macintel or something, or not even use a cutesy name. Who knows? Call it what you like.

Don't know about the iBooks, but there are rumours that some macs will be out with intel chips in January 06. Sounds optimistic, or at least early to me. But, again, who knows? I'd say mid 2006 for an iBook, maybe a Powerbook sooner (?).

I've never had a problem with software. I'm sure you'll not have a problem finding a local supplier (well, it depends where you live) for big titles, like Photoshop/Illustrator/InDesign/Flash/Dreamweaver/Quark etc. etc. In the UK, places like PC World even carry Mac machines and wares. But I find myself downloading more small developers apps, and there are many great apps out there.

Minisweeper

Hmm, interesting stuff lookhere, though i think you missed out the "(arghhmmm)" part of the software. Assuming me and 3stripe were on the same wavelength that is...

chimaira

The main thing that stops me buying a Mac is that it's not as easy to upgrade as a pc (i think?)... the pc i'm on atm was built from scatch and that to me gives my pc a personaility of its own which I created - and thats cool. I know every little piece of hardware in it. Although, if you are looking for an ibook this wouldn't be the case anyway. Good luck with your purcahse :)

Mark

I've been using macs a lot over the last few years because a lot of my friends who aren't computer-types like us buy them. Believe it or not, if you're new to computers (and I realize you're not), I've found that my mac-owning friends have just about as much trouble getting things to work as my pc-owning friends.

I've personally found that they're actually not that difficult to use - esp coming from a few decades behind PCs (all flav's of OS). There are some small things that I just can't get used to. For example, as a developer, I'm very used to right-click > creat new text file. You just can't do that on mac. You've got to load some other program to do it for you. It's kind of wierd (all mac people can come in here now and tell me how to do it in some way, but the point is that it's just not as easy as with a PC where it's built into the core).

You *do* have a command prompt in Mac's. They're built on unix, so when you open a bash prompt, it should be quite familiar if you've ever used linux in any capacity (I believe you have).

4. very very very small chance of ever getting a virus or spyware on a mac. this is a huge plus point, having just spent 4 hours this morning trying to remove spyware off my pc laptop.

This is an issue that pisses me off with mac people. I firmly believe that the amount of viruses and spyware is directly related to the market-share that PC owner's have. If enough people start using macs and they begin to dominate the market, mac people will be in for a big surprise when hackers of the world unite and decide to fuck with the new kid on the block. It has less to do with system security and more to do with the fact that hackers like fucking with as many machines as possible. Every system has holes - if you think you're safe buying one system over another, the only truth to that is how many people are trying to hack it.

Service Packs

It's silly to say that mac's don't have service packs. All systems get upgraded, my mac is constantly getting upgrades from apple. They don't call it a service pack, though - they just piecemeal everything into my machine. And service packs in windows are just big globs of piecemeal fixes mashed together into one monolith patch.

One very big plus to getting a mac is that you don't just get the machine, you get a very friendly (probably the biggest in this regard) community of support. There are millions of friendly people out there willing to help you with all of your mac problems. Those mac-friendly sites are like a cutesy coffee shop where everyone knows everyone and they all bask in their collective magnificence. It's a nice feeling - as opposed to, say, linux support groups, or windows newsgroups where there are mostly people who's native languages are hindi or russian and are hard to figure out. I've also noticed a big trend lately, especially in development support groups online, where PC support comes with a dollar sign attached. You never really get that with Mac's - everyone wants to help.

Finally, a big bonus with macs is that they just look cool. Their physical design is always a notch above anything in the pc market, and their UI is superb.

On the downside, mac's are typically more expensive than their PC equivalents.

Upgrades to hardware isn't as easy with Macs because there aren't a million different vendors out there with a myriad of options for add-ons. Don't get me wrong, there are some, but just go to tigerdirect and the difference is huge.

You know PC's, so I don't need to go into all of the benefits of a PC, but there is one thing I need to mention. Regardless of what the naysayers are spouting about vista, vista is going to kick some serious ass. I guarantee that if you buy a mac, you'll have some doubts about your purchase when you sit at a vista machine and tinker around. I got to play with a pre-release version of vista a few months back and it was really, really cool. I seriously can't wait.

Oh, one other thing is the sleeper hit Windows Media Center. If they decide to do a version 2 (which I know they will), it will be fucking awesome. I can only hope that apple is planning something similar (they're always very secretive about shit like that - just keep your rss tuned to engadget and gizmodo for news leaks).

End out.

Minisweeper

When is vista gonna be released? And will it actually run effectively on a mid range laptop? Likewise media centre - while i would like a tv tuner on a laptop, there are relatively few which actually have one (and the usb ones are just an extra cost) - so although i like the OS and the ideas behind it, it wouldnt be *as* useful as it would on a HTPC.

LoOkOuT

mini: Sorry, I did miss the "(arghhmmm)".... wooosh In my experience it is easy to get "(arghhmmms)" because there just seems to be less uptightness around registration and the like, from developers to Apple itself. Anyway, I've no problems getting anything I want and there's ss, cereal box and the like. I support so many of the good small developers simply because I just can't help myself. But I'm a student and often broke, so I can't support everyone. When it comes to the big boys, I have all the things mentioned above, so there's no problem there... Anyway, I find that it's easy to get "download and use and then decide to support if you want to" softwares, if you get me. By the way, in terms of the mac/pc debates, I don't mean to be a macnut (get it?) in any way. I firmly believe that nowadays there's room for whatever tool one needs. Use windows, use linux, use a mac. Use tools that bring them all together. That's my approach. It's just that I only use my mac; it's all I particularly need. mark, i agree with all you say, but I suggest some caveats. Yes Macs are more expensive, generally, but there are credible studies to suggest that ownership costs are lower over time. And, as I said, resale values are higher. And when I mentioned ServerPacks I was only taking the piss. We all have updates, it's just that I very often read people on non-techie messageboards asking which service packs they need, and which bit has to be installed before whatever, and where's the virus remover, software patch etc. etc. But, I don't really have much experience of updating Windows XP, so I concede your point. I (alledgedly) have Virtual PC, but I've (alledgedly) never updated the (alledged) XP on it and I (alledgedly) rarely use it (alledgedly). But, where security is concerned, I firmly believe that OS X *is* more secure. As secure as it's UNIX underpinnings allow it to be. It was built with security as a prime concern. True, nothing is unhackable, but out of the box, OS X is as secure as any personal computing OS in operation. As concerns the market share issue, well, that is debateable. But it's a moot point as far as "real world" computing goes. I don't worry about viruses on my Mac; fact. The Mac I am using now. Will I in the future (whether or not market share grows)? Who knows? You are right. This matter is not absolute, but relative. It is absurd for zealots to argue that Mac OS is 'absolutely' secure. Things could change, but as it stands, there is no denying that the Mac OS is secure; secure until proven otherwise. It's 'relatively secure', in that way, which is all that one can hope for. I don't know about Vista, it seems to have come in for lots of flack, so, in this regard, I only know what I've read. And I respect your opinion, mark, cos I respect you as a great software designer going by your work here. I wouldn't bet against Microsoft releasing a top os, but I don't like their products or their corporation and live a mostly Microsoft free existence (although they own a fairshare of Apple, so...) The Gadgets idea makes me laugh, unveiled after Tiger brought us Widgets (don't mention Konfabulator, I'll be forced to mention the original 1984 Mac's Desk Accessories), and so many "core" features have been said to be dropped and so many dates pushed back. mini wrote: "When is vista gonna be released?" That's the key point, as far as I'm concerned. Who knows? But Tiger is here and has much of, if not everything that Vista is promising in the way of features. And Apple still has Leopard to make sure the Mac OS stays ahead. Tiger is very nice, but everyone (as if I know everyone) is expecting Leopard to polish those last rough edges. If I had any money, I'd put it on Leopard and Apple; Jobs and not Balmer. Especially when it comes to a media centre. I think Apple designers and engineers understand how to move these things forward. Desing and usability come before all else in their corporate ethos (well, profit's in there somewhere, undoubtedly). I think Apple has been moving in that direction all along ("the mac as digital hub"), and Front Row is just a teaser. I bet we'll soon see an Airport Express for video and the like, with Front Row being developed to provide the slick interface. But, honestly, it's only my humble opinion.

gizmo

Well, working daily with a Mac BiPro G5 2.5Mhz as a develloper, let me tell you why I don't like this computer: - The external design is great, that's a fact, but the internal pieces are the cheapest Apple could find. HDD, ram are low cost one, and are slowing down the computer. Even Dell give better pieces. And the 23" screen is one of the worst I've ever seen (If you are a graphist, try to render the blue correctly on their monitors). After a half-day of work in the IDE, when changing the window, there is a ghost of the previous screen for nearly 5 minutes! (The powerbook have the same problem but they are also tainted with a yellow mask) - I'm forced to reboot the computer when there is an upgrade for the music player! - Bonjour protocol is simply a joke. Loosing the connection without trying the make a new one or preventing the user... - AFP protocol is slow. Transferring files at 400kb/s on a gigabit network is a shame. - They pretend to be a true Unix, but don't try to do all what you could do one a Unix on OSX. Users, for example, are not treated in the same way, preferences are store in two different places without synchronisation if you don't use the GUI! - You HAVE to us use the mouse. You cannot do all what you want with the keyboard. There is a huge lack of shortcuts. - Java implementation is slow. On my PC (2.4Ghz) the same program runs nearly twice faster than on the BiPro G5! - Writting symbols like '[' made me mad on an apple keyboard. - Dashboard is a shame. Put four times the same clock on it and admire how they are unable to synchronize the seconds switches. - They don't know what "disk space optimization" means.Take any program existing both on mac and on windows, it'll take twice more place on mac. iTunes for Win is 30Mb large, for Mac it's 58Mb! On the other side, I must admit that they have some cool feature, like the drag&drop for installation or the easy integration of new peripherals, but that's not enough for me.

LoOkOuT

"Dashboard is a shame. Put four times the same clock on it and admire how they are unable to synchronize the seconds switches." How could I forget the old "Dashboard 4 Clock insyncronicity" bug, the bane of my existence? LOL ; )

gizmo

Well, If you prefer some other therms, it so badly coded that 4 stupid clocks are using more than 100% of twn CPU... And there are widget that are using 20% of the CPU even if the dashboard isn't shown!

LoOkOuT

gizmo, how much ram do you have in that dual G5? I have the same machine and it wasn't until I installed 2GB extra, for 2.5GB total, that the machine began to hum along, very fast.

gizmo

I have 2Go ram on this machine.

Kosmo

You would be stupid to have a dual cpus and less than 2gigs of ram, any less and the memory becomes a severe bottleneck. Quad should have atleast 3gigs even more, it's all comparable to the speed the processors can churn the memory and fill it up.

gizmo

Then ask Apple why all their Bi G5 are with only 512Mo by default...

Mark

uh oh - I think this discussion is degrading to the inevitable mac/pc schoolyard bickering. But nice response, Lookhere. I didn't realize a lot of what you said. +1

Kosmo

Then ask Apple why all their Bi G5 are with only 512Mo by default...

"Because they are stupid, that is why anybody does anything" -Homer Simpson

To be honest, I'm not sure, you would think that Apple has designed their machines carefully enough to understand that the low memory is a bottleneck.

What I like about Apple is that they work closely with the larger developers so that their software works best on Macs, I mean, if they didn't someone else would, eh?

Some of my friends who work on video editing, say that Macs are good machines, but when you just need the best, it ain't Mac, there is way more optimization that can be done on a PC, and I agree, you just can't beat a home brewn machine built from absolutely the best parts and with the best software.