Lussumo CMS

Kosmo

I have had it. I have just totally have had it with these stupid stupid stupid CMS' They give me hundred ways to manipulate content/article/post what ever they call it, but a ZERO ways to manipulate or even generate a navigation. Can you imagine, the single most important thing on a website, and not a single tool out there can do it. I want a CMS done by Lussumo way. Simple, elegant, flexible, modular. A CMS that put YOU in control. I have spoken about making an intelligent publishing system for artists. But the more I think. It should be just Intelligent publishing system period. A publishing system that tought about accessibility, and simplicity, and still was flexible. I know that Mark is way too busy to do something about this, so maybe we should do something about it as a community. Because I know that there are people out there who are in the same situation as I am. A project big enough that you need something that is flexible, but not big enough to justify the costs of some hundreds of dollars worth of CMS software. So, whaddaya say?

giginger

I like the sound of that. For all we know Swell could be it. Probably not but it would be cool if it was.

Minisweeper

I'd love to. I dont know how to work with OOP php so helping could be tough, but if there's anything i *can* do... I'm happy to host dev files or whatever if thats any help atall (svn, probably, if i could work it out!)

3stripe

Sounds like a great idea, although I'd just have to be a spectator. Or design a nice logo for it. (I think the modular aspect could be a real winner if done properly.)

Kosmo

Even tho Lussumo is PHP based, I think I'm going to use RoR since my PHP skills suck.

And even if you can't code, you can toss ideas around, I'm keeping a design document where I put down interesting ideas. But it is going to be a basic CMS, like Vanilla is a basic forum, no additional bling to make things hard.

I'm going to break the management to three categories, three ones that are the most basic and most needed for a good CMS to handle.

• News/articles/posts
• Pages
• Navigation

Each category can be extended with modules, but even when the most basic, you can handle a big site.

But, what more does a basic need or use?

3stripe

Image management! (an optional module... or maybe via Plogger or Zen Photo?)

Interesting to see you've put navigation in its own category - does this mean you would have readymade options for the navigation system?

giginger

I think it's worth taking a leaf out of Marks book. Extension everything so people can really customise it. Most important seems to also be a good API so people can write more extensions. If you create a good framework for people to develop from then I'm sure it'll be a lot better system than what's currently available.

Kosmo

That is why I would prefer RoR for this project, even tho PHP is more popular by leaps and bounds. RoR has the template system pretty much covered and so is the modulation. I have taken the zen from Mark and I'm actually planning something in the lines of MCME (Modular Content Management Engine) that is like it's name says, an engine that is so basic as it can be to work as it own. But relies modules when it has to do something tricky like shopping carts or complex product catalog. BUT! That is not to say that I'm going to make a robust backend and just toss it out there. I am thinking usability, and not just the user side, but also from the admin side. Too many times I have bumped in to CMS or Blogging software that I have hard time understanding how they work, not to mention that often there are other that update the site. So do you have to teach them to use the machine aswell? And in many cases, when even I can't use the CMS perfectly, how about someone who uses MS Word as his primary tool? Also, there are alot of neat plans for extra usability for the admin side, but I need to consider carefully how I'm going to do that. If we add too many features it will make the software complicated, and it will ruin the whole project. I will try to make the navigation system as intelligent as I can, it will be the hardest part to make, but if I get it to work like my dream navigation generator works, it will be pure orgasm. Sure I could make up tons of ways to manipulate the articles and content in general, but that is the biggest problem most blogging software has, they just think about ways to manipulate the articles, forgetting that there is so much more that you could do with it.

NickE

As long as you don't shove a WYSIWYG editor in there, it'll work for me. By the way, I'd be glad to help if you need any.

Kosmo

I don't think a WYSIWYG editor is something that would be preferred by Vanilla users and I'm using them as guineapigs :D I have to first make a clear roadmap, from where to begin, and what I need. Before that, the best way to help me is to think up concepts on how things could work OR if you have some example in mind then it will be neat aswell. For those who have used Wordpress, I'm thinkin of using very same basic concept of handling the articles (dynamic) and pages(static.)

jos

but a ZERO ways to manipulate or even generate a navigation.

it's easy with wordpress

Kosmo

it's easy with wordpress

Yeah, well take page, then make a sub page for it, then try to place the sub page link somewhere else than right under the page link

Minisweeper

A couple of thoughts from a non-designer, non-coder (in complex situations, atleast), and non-user (at the moment, atleast). Hell why am i even here?! Anyway... CMS's, i think, are apps in which ajax can *really* excel. I love the way you can move stuff around in protopage and drop it wherever the hell you like. It might not be ideal in cms sense, but something along similar lines would be a major benefit (imo). A *major* problem with CMS's is that, in the majority of cases, you can tell a cms is a cms. There are times when you cant quite grab it, but thats usually down to the end user being a good designer with some coding skills to hand (there was one posted on here a while ago and i wouldnt have guessed he used a cms). While it kinda kills designers, cms's which can make a site look like someone designed it would be awesome. Second - as far as administration goes, although obviously an 'admin screen' or whatever is a necessary (i think?) base, the ability to edit in-place is also a plus. It kinda ties in with my first comment, but where people can see as far as possible how their site will look while theyre half way through doing something with it, people will like it. I hate it when i have my site, then i have to click this, that, the other, write some content, save it, post my ideas to france, take a trip down to the local shops, and come back in order to see what i just did (ok so maybe i exaggerated ever so slightly, but you can get the idea). If i can just click 'bugger it, i wrote that wrong' next to something, change it, and update it, i'd be a lot happier. It's difficult, really. While i like to be able to see my site exactly as a customer/user would see it, i also like to see it as an admin with abilities to change things. And in a way i think it's important that those options are both left open without having to logout/in again. One way you could do it would be to have a little button somewhere in the admin view which just cuts out all admin stuff css (edit buttons, movement buttons, whatever). I'll keep thinking. Hopefully if i write a hundred messy thoughts down some of the blurb will benefit you.

Minisweeper

Oh, and another thing. While extensibility is a very good thing, it also puts me off if when i install a cms i then have to go round getting this that and the other to make it do what i want. I'm not saying dont make it as raw as possible and bolt everything on as extensions, cause thats fine, but making extensions easy to add/edit/remove/get/install/visit your granny/whatever is important.

Minisweeper

Further to that end, i dont see news/articles/whatever a necessary part of the core. While for most people theyre important, and in the end it might be much easier/more sensible to build them into the core cause to make them an extension would be a big headache, i think it is atleast necessary to be able to turn them off as though they wernt there to begin with. If you leave a cms on the boil till all the water has evaporated, basically what you have is a single web page. To have 2 web pages you'd need a navigation. Theyre both integral parts. Having the ability to update those pages in a news sense doesnt *have* to be an integral part. This is probably a slightly controversial point, but if you're really getting down to the nitty gritty of things, a site doesnt *have* to have news/whatever. It does, however, *need* pages and a way to get between them.

jesusphreak

I think you should take a page from Drupal and make the only thing in the "core" be a user system. You should definitely look at Drupal for inspiration as it is an extremely modular CMS. The only real problem with it always seemed complicated to me.

Kosmo

Well, piecing together the nuggets of your genious output and test feeding them to bitey, the furry patron of what is good and what is not came up with a conclusion that will have you questioning you nuggets AND output for quite a while. (he has that sort of effect on everybody) The problem with hands-on approach like you described in your first post is, that it is usually restricted with the template in use. What happens when I want to edit my text output but I placed the text output to a small floating box? I have to edit the text in the small floating box, in the small floating box. It might be possible to make it do something spectacular like resize the div to fit a standard text field, but it might be overcomplicated. I'm twiddling around with ideas to have an interface that you can use to build the navigation out of drag n' drop boxes that represent links to pages. But that is whole another story. I'm thinking of taking an extreme approach to the extensibility. Just like Mark, I might go with just a basic tools to manage posts, pages and build an interface. But even the most basic version of it, will ship with several extensions that you can easily add/remove from the admin interface. I'm building this MCME with two goals in mind, I'm going to use it as the next backend for the company website I'm working for currently, and as my own "graphic designers intelligent publishing tool" so the minimum of extensions might just be enough for even the most complex site. And I will be integrating some more complex tools in it, like more advanced Intranet features and a shopping cart at somepoint in the distant future. I will try to gather my toughts tomorrow and build a sort of a map to present my overall ideas.

Kosmo

I have been a corporate webmonkey for a while, and if there is one thing that I have come to understand is that, todays internet, it is important to keep your site updated. And for this, the tool is the posting tool, for the flesh or rather the body of a site is obviously the static pages that doesn't need the regular update. And the mind that keeps the site alive is the neural network, or rather, navigation or interface. I think the CMS is alot like a human, the news or what ever for you use them, are like clothes, they change often, and usually they don't present the individual correctly. The pages are like the body that makes him different from other beings or sites. And the navigation is like this beings mind and personality, some are simple, some are frustrating to work with, but at best, some are good enough to marry. These are the things that for me, make the site, make the person. Ofcourse there are things like file management, piercings, media management, tattoos and such. But the being to work flawlessly with customers it has to atleast have mind, body and clothes.

Mr. Fahrenheit

What, then, is Cologne?!

Kosmo

What, then, is Cologne?!

The beauty of my system is that YOU decide

Mr. Fahrenheit

I like cheap store cologne like Brut.