The state of mind OR rather Web 2.0

Kosmo

There has been lately alot of talk about what some industry leaders think is/isn't Web 2.0 After reading several interesting articles, I have found myself agreeing on times and laughing my ass off aswell. So what causes hilarity? I don't actually know, smart things have been said and done, but is the Web 2.0 just a state of mind like nirvana and not actually a place (or a band for that matter)? So, what eggheads HAVE been whispering to my ear? Well, for first, our smooth and slick comrades at 37 Signals think that their mothership to Web 2.0 is Ruby on Rails, while they are clearly stating that Ajax, RSS etc. are history and so are companies like Yahoo! Microsoft and the industry superpower Google. Why do they think this? Well, the explanation Bitey style is easy, back when Web 1.0 toddlerstate began, we were all wild west and bar brawls, but WE have been comitted to community service, regular people who work behind the curtain and innovate things. Yes, we say it's OUR but it's not ours, and it has not been that for a fair decade anymore, Yahoo! Ebay, Amazon, Google and such took it from us and pocketed everything we helped and to some degree BUILT, like the settlers who built america, we were the brits who were pushed back by the cool kids with their markettin millions and TV ads. Web 2.0 will not be those cool kids, it will be the regular joes, the tech savy people who take the web by the throat and make it work for them and not the otherway around like it has been till now. There has been clear signs for good few years now, Blogs from every nook and granny, Wikipedia, Archive.org, and things like that. Technologies built by people and not companies, strive and gather people together to celebrate the new coming of the age of man, MAN WHO TOOK BACK THE CONTROL OF THE WILDERNESS FROM THE SAVAGE ANIMALS THAT HABITED IT THUSFAR! I could go on and on, but what I wanted to say, I have said. Discussion ensues!

Krak

MAN WHO TOOK BACK THE CONTROL OF THE WILDERNESS FROM THE SAVAGE ANIMALS THAT HABITED IT THUSFAR! haha. I dont think AJAX is history. As far as I know it is just now becoming more popular. I had never heard of it until like 2 months ago. RoR is great, it might be the future of things, who knows. I doubt it will totally reign the net though. In a few years I would guess that it will be in wide use. I think it will grow up and maybe replace PHP. I do think the internet has been corporatized. Freaking ads left and right, and huge companies owning large portions of the net/addresses. Its sad. I hate corporations. I started surfing the web back in 93 or 94, somwhere around there, and I can totally see the difference in how it has become. It is not the same anymore, at all.

the aloha

"pioneer life is hell" corporations also help people access the internet and are willing to take the risk of throwing more money at copying what works.

jesusphreak

You know what I was thinking the other day?

The web is like the Wild West of the late 1800s. Few rules. Some big monopolies taking over lots of stuff, people trying to hit it big or find their fame/fortune and a lot of people lost and trying to find their way.

the aloha

so long as we can keep it free, it will continue to be useful. however, recent history will prove that we want to protected from it.

moe

RoR is an overhyped toy, just like most other frameworks.

the aloha

thank you, moe.

jesusphreak

moe obviously hasn't used RoR.

Krak

Has anyone that is against RoR used it? Like, actually built an app with it? then you would see, thats its not just an "overhyped toy". Edit: bah, nevermind, I dont want this to turn into another RoR discussion... lol, maybe we should make a RoR thread. In fact, I will.

lech

I have noticed a slight trend over the past decade of computer usage. and about every 5-6 years, everything comes full circle and reinvents itself or simply ceases and dies off. New toys pop up, some serious languages arise, and adoption of these new languages and toys becomes popular and strong. Then it happens all over again. Apache is a good example of this, because with apache2, the server environment is more than it used to be and it's literally become its own framework apart from being just a popular server platform. Like moores law is applied to processing speeds, the same I guess can be said for internet development and applications. We plateu for a while and play dead, and behind the scenes something great is being made. Then all of a sudden, in one yaer, dozens of new toys are released and the cycle begins again. Change is inevitable, and who knows where the next decade will take us. I just hope to fucking god the next OS isn't a system bolstered down with military grade encryption where just to play a music file i need to enter 3 different passwords and have a special license key. Cause that would fucking suck... oh, wait, it's already here and it's name is vista...

Krak

Hahaha... I hear you on the OS issue. I just started a switch to Linux. I did it for using RoR, but the more I use it the more I like it and the more I hate windows. I've been using Ubuntu for a week straight now. Only booted to windows once, and whn I was in there I wanted to get out soo fast. Im not sure exactly what it was, its just the overall feel I guess. Dunno.

Kosmo

Lech, you are totally right there. There is the Lemming trend going on in computer world, and I think that is one of the major reasons we are in a situation like this. RoR is a great example, for great example of use it has gained popularity in the circles that made PHP popular back when it was introduced, or maybe not IN the same circle, but a similar popular click and talented people. That is why I'm predicting that RoR if not becoming the next big thing, it will be a defining aspect to the next big thing. And I know I have said some bad things about RoR, but when you think about it, PHP was not that popular back in the day, but it became just this wild thing that has no rival, and it will stay such for a while. But like with the Lemmings, the market becomes overwhelmed with new things that the cut will be severe, alot of great things will be lost because the volume is greater than need. (I just hope the same would happen to Linux distros, shees, so how many different versions you need of the same fucking thing?) And other thing I'm seeing that has a great potential and it will become somewhat of a defining thing more so than it already is, even if it is one of the most popular things invented, Peer-2-Peer. I know like half the computer using population is connected to somesort of p2p network, but it is not going to stop there. And I'm not going to boldly predict anything, but there is a good chance that, we have not seen anything when it comes to p2p. As for AJAX and the syndication, well, do you remember news groups? Well, follow my pattern, news groups -> forums/community sites, personal website -> blog, syndication -> ?, see? What I said about small people taking back the web sooner or later, the syndication is more like an enemy than a friend, it makes EVERYTHING a gray mass, I follow alot of sports event through RSS feed and that is fine, but I don't follow ANY blog/forum/whatever through any kind of syndication since they suck ass at that kind of stuff. Just like how news groups sucked ass compared to forums and some of the better community sites, and blogs, the mentality is just healthier than "personal webspace", blog is ment to be visited regularily, the personal website is just 80s vision of personal "yellowpages ad" or something creepy like that. As for AJAX, well, I mentioned that RoR might have a good chance of being the next definitive thing, and AJAX goes almost hand to hand with RoR, a dynamic duo, almost like PHP and Apache OR PHP and MySQL (yes, I know, RoR and AJAX can't be compared to scripting language and a web server/database server, but the impact on things is pretty much the same here). Thanks for listening my ramble.

lech

well, the only thing windows has a strangle-hold on (and a fairly good one at that) is for being a prime gaming platform, as well as for creating 3D. that's it's only 2 major strenghts that I can think of off the top of my head. programming is a close second, but what platform is not capable of compiling interpreted code that anyone can make using a standard text editor. "vista" is nothing more than the RIAA platform of choice, besides making a total fuck-up of xp and making it so that you need a 256mb video card just to run the OS is totally the opposite of what we need in a proper OS which should be light and not force every fan in the box to run at full capacity. Because of some of those things, I can't see everyone leeping over to vista. It's just the next generation of windows ME all over again, this time however, it's much worse.

Kosmo

Well, I can agree with the gaming platform thing, mostly due to the very active work with ATI, nVidia and Microsoft on DirectX. But when it comes to anything graphical, nothing can beat a Mac, not even when it comes to 3d modelling. Sure there are more 3d Modelling packages for Winnie than there is for Mac OS, but take it from a guy who has taken Maya to a Mac with half the theoretical speed of a PC and just blown my head off just on how smooth the Mac was. And alot of big studios are moving to the direction ILM flagged and are making their own tools out of Blender and FilmGIMP so Linux has a great foothold.

Krak

I dont use RSS for anything. Personally I think reading a blog also involves looking at the site. It gives what you read/type character, a base on what to go on. Everyones blog is customized to the user. Its part of the blog scene. View the site, then read. As far as news, news sites are already plain and boring so theres no problem there. I feel the same way about the new OS's. I feel that software is going in the wrong direction. Software should push limits, but I shouldnt have to upgrade everytime something new comes out. How about making software that boosts performance on your current machine, but does more than what the current software does. Software makers should focus more on the performance of their product. Fix it, make it run smoother, better, and more stable. Not just pump up the current issues and require faster hardware to run it faster. Know what I mean?

lech

ok, anyway, to not derail this thread any further, RoR as moe stated, is still a toy however, it won't necessarily replace any serious J2EE but it's still a pretty powerful toy. I can see it's uses growing and MAYBE taking over as a serious alternative. Then again, that's a big maybe. Kosmo, as far as newsgroups are concerned, to be honest, I fucking hated them more than some of those ever-running nothing-but-flames message boards. However I can see how some want to get their content via different means and I'm fine with that. But primarily the one fact that bothered me with newsgroups is the necessity to have some external reader applications and other gizmo's to navigate it "properly". These days, I have done the following things: Dumped all of my local mail clients. With the growing popularity of web based mailboxes, All I really need is my browser for just about everything. No seperate applications, it's all there. If I need some specialized application (like for newsgroups) I find an alternative in scriptable form I can run from my server via perl/php, else abandon it entirely. Like I stated before, everything I need to do can and should be done via the browser window or possibly via console :D it's just easier that way in most cases. I have come a long way since when I was dialing up ancient BBS's (these days telnetting to) and grabbing my mail and chatting on a once smaller list of IRC servers. In many respects, I loved the CLI for most things, while many times, I loathed it for some things. On the plus side, it was super lightweight and didn't ask for much. The only thing you had to know was how to work the system and you were fine. A uniform and familiar interface is all I ask for. Web based applications are becoming more prevelant and everything is being run either off of a server and through your browser. I'm fine with that as long as security is all in mind and I can still get what I need. RSS has been around for ages whether people noticed it or not, it's only gained more popularity lately and seriously has become a beast of burden rather than something useful in many cases. As for 3D platforms, there's still quite a few applications you can't run on the mac which require a PC, I just hope those game makers eventually port their tools to each platform that needs it and I'll be a happy camper. If apples supported DirectX and Microsoft supported development for DirectX on OSx, a cleaver move for jobs would be to open up OSX to ALL p4 systems and steal all the windows cronies away from redmond. If I had the choice and the switch was cheap, I'm sure I can see myself and about everyone else I know making a change for the better.

jesusphreak

RSS is silly. As Lech said, you can get everything through a browser. Why would I make things more complicated and force myself to use another program (yeah, some browsers have RSS readers but they suck)?

Plus you can't comment through RSS, you don't see the site for what it is. I hate RSS.

You really just have to use RoR to understand its power. Its just really well-done, too. From the very core its solid. Its not a bunch of hot-air nor hype, you realize this as soon as you develop apps in it. I'm not kidding why I say that it would take me months of learning PHP to do things that I'm doing in RoR in less than a month's time working with it.

Best thing of all is once you "get it", you feel like you can do anything. With other stuff its feels like, "Oh, I get this, but I don't get this yet. More work to be done". RoR there is a learning curve to get you into the idea of MVC, of Ruby, etc, but once you get past that its just wow.

jesusphreak

After saying all I did about RSS, I still think it has its uses. I just think its really being overused by the geeks right now.

No one besides the tech-savvy knows nor cares what RSS is. And even some of the tech-savvy people don't like it. Its basically just a way of viewing a stripped-down webpage. I'd rather see the full thing than just a piece.

lech

It's not that I think RSS is stupid, in fact, it's very useful, the one thing that is fairly stupid is that there are specialized readers built around it which are completly seperate applications. Which in turn do nothing more than point you back to the browser environment to the links which power them. It's just been popularized to the point where now RSS is fairly useful. I was never implying that it was useless before, there just wasn't much content out there to make it worth while, and now there is. There are are quite a few good RSS reader extensions for firefox, I like sage personally, it's simple and sweet and managing the feeds couldn't be easier. The only problem with it is that there really is no interaction as promised a half-decade ago when XML was widely popularized. The most interactive XML to date is jabber, but that's for chat, as far as sites go, there's not much. Otherwise it just hasn't had time to poke it's head to the surface and is still in the stages of being built. Either way, I hope when it rears it's head, it's easy and useful to use and abuse like all other apps currently leading the trend.

Kosmo

Back in the day, everything was better, when I dialed my 32k modem to the net, I connected to some BBS with my Telnet console and could fire up Quake and go do some mindnumbing deathmatch for hours. But anyway, I'm not actually dissing RoR, I'm more like dissing the people that use it. I'm just literally terrified, when the one hundred million programs made by people who "love how easy it is to use" and expose everything from their own site, the server and all the sites on the server due to a security risk in the code they couldn't prevent because they don't actually know anything about coding or security but love using the oh-so-easy scaffolding for everything from blogging machines to different kinds of blogging machines. There is a reason why people take months to learn some code like PHP, there is a reason they like to be in control, and there is certainly a reason why many coders are just terrified of programs that write several lines of code without them overviewing it like they would when they are writing it themselfs. So do I hate RoR? No way, I think it is sweet, and I'm going to definedly dabble with it in the future. Would I use a PHP code made by some wannabe coder who wrote only two lines of code and got the rest of it from a cereal box? Hell no, either way you put it, I wouldn't risk anything. You see where I'm going?

jesusphreak

The thing is, unless a coder changes any of the preset RoR conventions, there's no security risks - literally. Most things that you can build don't need a whole lot of modification outside of the basic framework itself.

There is a reason why people take months to learn some code like PHP, there is a reason they like to be in control, and there is certainly a reason why many coders are just terrified of programs that write several lines of code without them overviewing it like they would when they are writing it themselfs.

But there's a question I have to present to you.

Would you prefer someone who had only known PHP for a few days or someone who had only known RoR for a few days to build a secure/usable app?