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Vanilla Reactions and Badges - Would you buy it?

2

Comments

  • Tim was clear.

    I think that x00 solution is very promising!

  • I've proposed an alternative to x00 if he has the time to work on it.
    Waiting for a response.

  • We could use this thread to make a wishlist :)

  • brainolutionbrainolution ✭✭
    edited May 2012

    Tim said:
    The time we would spend dealing with that would make it unprofitable, despite what the business geniuses in this thread seem to think.

    Nothing stopping you from making your own version though. Go nuts!

    Disappointing response.

    What stops you from making it open source on an as-is basis? There are so many issues with so many "Vanilla approved" plugins and even some with core features. What support are you giving us on them? All the support that we get is from this community, which I must say is very helpful.

    You can afford to talk like this until you have better competition. And then you'll be trying to woo back these very same 'business genuises'. No business can afford to be complacent.

    Good luck.

    phreakaery
  • hbfhbf wiki guy? MVP

    lets not get testy.. There's more than enough room in this world for different business models and development paradigms.

    At the point that we make this a competition with the core development team, i guarantee my support will vanish.

    That said, as @x00 mentioned, i will tackle the reactions portion of the code. I plan on doing it completely open source, and welcome contributions.

    My plan is to continue to evolve the I Like This Plugin, mostly for aesthetics at this point, with a fix in the data model to allow it to adapt to splits and merges properly. I will also allow users to dislike a post, which will either apply a -1 like to a given post or count and display the number of dislikes separately (so you could conceivably end up with a few likes and a few dislikes, depending on the comment and the mix of people on a site) other than that it seems a complete plugin from my vantage point.

    I will also create a companion 'flagging' plugin (maybe called 'what the hell is this.. plugin') that will allow users to flag something as inappropriate. It will request that the user insert a comment as to why they found the post to be in violation of a forum rule. I'm thinking that i will have, in addition to marking the post as flagged, a restricted discussion which only mods can see that serves as a collection point for each flagging and the related comment. I haven't thought it all of the way through yet.

    Anyway, im doing it for free but here's the rub, it will take me a while to do all of this. So, in the meantime i'm requesting feedback on the concepts outlined above. If you want to accelerate the process you can help motivate me by doing one of the following:

    1. Offer to help resolve some code challenges.. we can collaborate on github.
    2. Post some content on the Wiki << and let me know you did it ;)
    3. Do a bunch of thorough testing with the current i like this plugin with integration to karma bank and report your test results on a new thread.
    4. Donate money to my homebrew site (any amount, i don't care, the act means more than the cash value)<<-- can be with or without creating a user account, but user accounts are encouraged i love new users.
    5. Just sign up and participate on my forum, link above. PM me to let me know you came for this reason.

    I look forward to your interest in the project.

    SevMC422aery
  • I asked for a badge plugin about a year ago and although you couldn't still see, seemed closer than is today .

    The development team has done its understandable choice.
    Create an alternative to the plug-in that they do not want to release it could appear disrespectful.
    On the other hand, this community for the daily testing and development of numerous plugins released for free, I think that can afford it.

    unixhero
  • hbfhbf wiki guy? MVP

    candyman said:
    I asked for a badge plugin about a year ago and although you couldn't still see, seemed closer than is today .

    The development team has done its understandable choice.
    Create an alternative to the plug-in that they do not want to release it could appear disrespectful.
    On the other hand, this community for the daily testing and development of numerous plugins released for free, I think that can afford it.

    i don't think anyone would find the decision to make an alternative plugin as disrespectful. on the other hand, there were some other posts in here and other threads that i do believe are a bit disrespectful and that i believe is unacceptable.

  • 422422 Developer MVP

    Mutinous comments indeed. As facebook operates, the platform is open src for others to develop for it and in it.
    Zuckerberg stated, we cant create everything everyone wants. But other companies and individuals can using our platform.
    I dont think the vanilla model is dissimilar.

    422 Real Estate Australia , now open Check it out

  • Sorry, I've misunderstood this passage:

    hbf said:
    At the point that we make this a competition with the core development team, i guarantee my support will vanish.

    :|

  • 422422 Developer MVP

    In other words , soon as it becomes an US AND THEM. Scenario @candyman

    422 Real Estate Australia , now open Check it out

  • Speedball 2: Badge Deluxe ;)

  • hbfhbf wiki guy? MVP
    edited May 2012

    422 has it right.. if we begin competing or creating an air of adversarial conduct, then i will have nothing to do with it. I believe in the open source project, i also believe it is up to the individual or organization developing content to determine under what terms they will operate, i do not criticize. I may offer up an alternative scenario or two, but only in the interest of constructive, thought engaging discourse.

  • brainolutionbrainolution ✭✭
    edited May 2012

    @candyman

    You should have shared that link a couple months ago. Seriously, XenForo looks to be a worthy competitor. It seems much more professional than Vanilla (sorry to say that), but what I don't like about it is that it looks and feels like any other forum software. It doesn't look fresh. On the other hand, Vanilla, especially with the Bootstrap theme, which is being developed, looks much cooler. I also like the discussion-based approach used by Vanilla. Moreover I love open source. Both seem to have their pros and cons. Anyway, this thread is not for comparisons, so I'll stop there.

    I agree with you that from the other thread, badges looked closer then than it does today. Honestly, I'm very disappointed that we are not going to get it. Today they are doing it with badges, tomorrow who knows what else we'll miss out on. I don't like their business model and the inferior treatment to the OS community. Since my forum is still in its nascency, I won't mind jumping the ship if I find a better alternative.

    aeryunixhero
  • hbfhbf wiki guy? MVP

    brainolution said:
    @candyman

    You should have shared that link a couple months ago. Seriously, XenForo looks to be a worthy competitor. It seems much more professional than Vanilla (sorry to say that), but what I don't like about it is that it looks and feels like any other forum software. It doesn't look fresh. On the other hand, Vanilla, especially with the Bootstrap theme, which is being developed, looks much cooler. Anyway, this thread is not for comparisons, so I'll stop there.

    I agree with you that from the other thread, badges looked closer then than it does today. Honestly, I'm very disappointed that we are not going to get it. Today they are doing it with badges, tomorrow who knows what else we'll miss out on. I don't like their business model and the inferior treatment to the OS community. Since my forum is still in its nascency, I won't mind jumping the ship if I find a better alternative.

    it's open source software, you are welcome to pitch in and make it be whatever you want.

  • Those interested in accolades let me know, it would be good to get at least five sponsors.

    It will be very much like prizes, where you set you own rules based on common meta, etc. You upload the graphic you want for the accolade. I hope that is pretty clear to understand.

    Combo prizes would require chained rules, which could be factored into the job if wanted.


    Accolade graphic packs, are an opportunity for designers or the web master themselves to make. Like I said it will be pretty custom, so you would probably want to customise the graphics, so graphic pack could serve an inspiration for that. E.g. different variations of shooting stars or whatever.

    grep is your friend.

    aerycandymanphreak
  • brainolutionbrainolution ✭✭
    edited May 2012

    it's open source software, you are welcome to pitch in and make it be whatever you want.

    I know that. You are assuming that everyone using Vanilla has the skills and time to contribute. As I've said in previous posts, I like the control I get by hosting my own forum, and I also don't mind paying money to purchase the features that I like. But I don't want a hosted solution, period. What I need doesn't align with Vanilla's business model. They have the right to chose what's best for them, and I have the right to decide what I want.

    Moreover, as you probably know better than me, companies don't make their software open source as charity or community service. They benefit from the community as well. So it's give and take. No side is doing a favor on the other.

    Anyway, there's nothing personal against anyone.

    aerycandyman
  • hbfhbf wiki guy? MVP

    brainolution said:

    it's open source software, you are welcome to pitch in and make it be whatever you want.

    I know that. You are assuming that everyone using Vanilla has the skills and time to contribute. As I've said in previous posts, I like the control I get by hosting my own forum, and I also don't mind paying money to purchase the features that I like. But I don't want a hosted solution, period. What I need doesn't align with Vanilla's business model.

    Moreover, as you probably know better than me, companies don't make their software open source as charity or community service. They benefit from the community as well. So it's give and take. No side is doing a favor on the other.

    Anyway, there's nothing personal against anyone.

    i really don't make that assumption. I have used other OS projects for which i had neither the time, talent nor inclination to contribute. I contribute here because by the very nature of it, i use this software for my forum and i write my own little plugins to support that hobby. i don't make money here, i have a day job.

    im thinking you will get what you need/want. you want badges and reactions, an OS version will be developed. you're willingness to put skin in the game by helping to sponsor guys like x00 will make it go faster.

  • brainolutionbrainolution ✭✭
    edited May 2012

    @hbf

    I'm saying this honestly - if the development is moving in the right direction, I will contribute at some point (provided I'm still with Vanilla).

    I'm a developer too, though not a PHP developer. However, I know other scripting languages and it won't take me long to pick it up, but my current situation doesn't permit me to dive into it right now. I have developed a web-based tool and most of my time goes in developing, maintaining and supporting it. The forum is just supporting that product.

    Similar to the developments on the badges, I'm also following the development on the Bootstrap theme. Whenever I decide to apply that theme on my forum, I'll surely show my appreciation to the developer by making a monetary contribution.

    As I've said before, this community is doing a great job. I have a lot of respect for you and other members. I really want you guys to develop a capable replacement to badges, and probably even better than it. I won't be able to contribute with my time, but I'll do so in other ways.

    candyman
  • Moreover, as you probably know better than me, companies don't make their software open source as charity or community service. They benefit from the community as well. So it's give and take. No side is doing a favour on the other.

    Absolutely but it has to be done on a case by case basis, to make sense for that business. it is not always right for the time or situation.

    Professional OS was envisioned precisely becuase of the weaknesses in traditional open source. Sponsor development is a different idea it released open source but coder are paid for actually work rather than the focus being on licensing.

    The core team priority right now is to focus on 2.1 and also the hosted site, which is an revenue steam that funds the development of the core. It is actually optimised to run vanilla, it is not for everybody, but serves a niche.

    if you were a coder, you would understand, just how tied up in things you can get, and time equals money. I absolutely respect their decision and it not really fair to speculate on things you are not involved in. Of course they will be thinking of other revenue streams, but they are not going to do everything. it is their choice.

    Also we have been given the all clear from Todd so I don't really see why there is so much complaining. There is flexibility to do it. If he was offended by it he is hiding it very well.

    grep is your friend.

  • brainolutionbrainolution ✭✭
    edited May 2012

    @x00

    I'm relatively new here, and I'm not sure whether you are "affiliated" with Vanilla. But you do sound so. Maybe a little disclosure would help here.

    Are you saying that Vanilla has a choice, but we don't have a choice? We can't have a right to our opinion? We don't have a right to be disappointed? Disappointment isn't necessarily a negative thing. We can convert that into positive energy and create something even better than what Vanilla has.

    I'm just expressing my opinion. I don't think I have been disrespectful to anyone. But if difference of opinion is disrespect to anyone, then I can't help it.

    BTW, I did not understand the context when you said "all clear from Todd" and "flexibility to do it".

    unixhero
  • phreakphreak VanillaAPP - White label iOS and Android App MVP
    edited May 2012

    I'd like to point out that this discussion is very constructive as it shows up what needs are in the community. Also it might look like the ideas of just some people, i guess it reflects the feeling of a bunch more.

    Wether it's Vanilla's business model or not, splitting something into 2 development speeds or versions does bring some problems within. Things need to get organized for the 2nd branch of users i consider one myself. So let's get productive!

    1.) The Vanilla forum itself may not be the best place to organize the development of a community based "Badges"-Extension. Were can we put discussions about together, organize the money for the development and all the stuff, for example for @x00 s "Accolades"?

    2.)
    Also a development like this should be easy to communicate to the main Vanilla community, newbies and so. Maybe we can ask Marc, Tim and Co. to give certain extensions like a probable coming "Accolades" a proper place to introduce themselves. In the Forum here, in the documentation? Shouldn't be a problem from the point that Badges is just not released for self-hosting users because of the "to much support"-issue as statet by the Vanilla-Team or?

  • x00x00 MVP
    edited May 2012

    @brainolution

    I was no singling out any one person. You have a right to your opinion and to be disappointed, no problem there. I just think they get it in the side a lot from people who don't necessarily know the facts.

    No I'm not affiliated, but have been interested since V1, and have a lot of respect for what the team have achieved. I have also been outspoken on issues. For instance when they were making garden I said, "why not use an existing framework rather than creating a new one?". As it turn out garden is a great little transportable framework, that suits parallel extension. It took a while but I actually quite like it. I think also dropping a lot of the initial idealism really helped.

    @phreak this is absolutely the right place to discuss, but you could start a new discussion for Accolades

    We have the freedom to do any extensions. so it is up to us. My interpretation of Todd's comment is he is not bothered about us, doing somethign similar.

    edit it is Tim not Todd that commented.

    grep is your friend.

  • aeryaery Gtricks Forum in 2.2 :) ✭✭✭

    Am I the only one who thinks an alternate system (accolades) is not the perfect solution?

    Vanilla team is right now dedicating their time on 2.1 and people who have experienced it knows it is completly revamped. Go at github and follow vanilla development. They have made countless changes and removed numerous bugs. And it is being developed on regular basis. Let them complete 2.1 which will be a new markstone in vanilla's history. Then we and official can decide on real solution.

    Somebody in the forum pointed out the business model. If I may propose some other alternate revenue streams -

    1) Google Adsense - Either on this forum or those 30 days free trial forums where ads will be shown only to outside members.

    2) Vanilla Stats - Premium charging only corporate forums or to people who have network of forums.

    3) Webhost Referrals - On the download page of this site, suggest some shared hosting services which are good for vanilla with referrals.

    4) Backup in Cloud - Vanilla can offer services for real time backup at their cloud servers for a small fee from freeloaders.

    5) Server space for File Upload Plugin.

    Anyways, back to the topic.

    2.1 is a major overhaul and all the themes and plugins may not necessary work by default. Something alternative is always good, but I believe we should give more time to vanilla team to think and make strategic choices.

    Vanilla is sweet & support is great, to encourage volunteers, please donate.

    Sheila
  • hbfhbf wiki guy? MVP

    @aery i believe x00 has been following the dev branch pretty closely. I trust anything he does today will be compatible with 2.1

  • @aery we might wait if badges were part of the 2.1 release. At this point they won't (except for the hosted forums).

    Accolades (which is related to karma bank too), according to me, is the only viable way at the moment. If at least 10 people are interested it could be affordable too.

  • phreakphreak VanillaAPP - White label iOS and Android App MVP
    edited May 2012

    @aery: It's already confirmed here on the board that the Vanilla's won't release Badges for the self-hosting community. Also your ideas to generate revenue are A.) already thought through by the team i think and B.) not very promising income sources compared to the hosting model, which isn't bad at all (just doesn't do it for a lot of us).

    Btw, i know we had that discussion already, but purchasing "Badges" via the Vanilla Dashboard via PayPal would be an all sexy integration. ;)

    I'm serious behind Accolades. Could someone who has already been working with Badges start a separate thread like "Accolades Development" and lay out some features. I'm in, with money also. I wrote @x00 already to drop me some expectations about the costs. Let's Go Go Go!

  • I think what people tend to forget that behind every idea is operating costs/overhead, both in terms of money an human resources.

    Accolades isn't meant to be a perfect solution, it is meant to be a viable alternative.

    However I am extremely busy so if there is not momentum right now, I may have to bail for the time being.

    grep is your friend.

  • aeryaery Gtricks Forum in 2.2 :) ✭✭✭

    I dont know why but I strongly believe that Badges will someday be released for us. My heart says so.

    But if the community wants to come together and develop alternate system, then by all your graces may I propose this model -



    This is from TOI and the most successful method I have seen.

    The beauty of this system is the encouragement for users to perform an action and integration with Karma points.

    Vanilla is sweet & support is great, to encourage volunteers, please donate.

    brainolutionFanboyNYCiChocolate
  • mcu_hqmcu_hq yippie ki-yay Arizona, USA ✭✭✭
    edited May 2012

    For those that want badges and other modern features, I suggest that you take a serious look at the up and coming xenforo. Vanilla is not meant to be a complex forum system. It is more suited for simple view/reply. Sure, you can add plugins that do some neat things, but the functionality of all of them will be hard to match that of a paid forum.

    Don't get me wrong though, Vanilla does bring some interesting new features to the table (QnA, statistics, voting), but a lot of the people proposing to pay for this don't know what they are getting themselves into. Something like this may take months to deliver, and even then I bet that you all won't be satisfied with it due to everyone's different needs. Also, expect to pay more than a few hundred US dollars for this too. Compare that to Xenforo $40/year. Keep in mind that the plugin will most likely not be approved by the Vanilla team and potentially not work in later versions.

    My point is that there are some things that you should be careful about adding to a large open source development. There are some aspects that should be maintained by the core developers. If it is left to a third party, there is no guarantee that it will be merged back into the core and hence break in future versions. Now where does this place you? You may have wasted months (a year perhaps) coding this and that or paying someone to, only to have it fail in a few years/months time. I'm sure X00 or whoever (maybe you?) develops this in the end will produce good code, but there is still no absolute guarantee. Technology, especially web development, changes at a fast pace. If you don't believe, just look at the difference between the current trunk of vanilla and its 2.1 branch.

    If badges is a deal breaker for people, then it is probably time you looked for alternative forum software.

    I don't intend this to be a plug for Xenforo....just trying to point out other options. I can understand why people only want to use free software anyway (myself included), but understand the limitations.

    brainolution
  • candymancandyman ✭✭
    edited May 2012

    We know XenForo is great. Personally I discovered the badges option after looking the trophies of XenForo.
    Anyway Vanilla is open source and like @brainolution explained well, more fresh from a graphical point of view.

    If you look at this board running the Badges plugin, you'll understand that we can add badges without betraying its spirit.

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This discussion has been closed.