I will say that @Tim argues for the complete opposite of this and that if someone is that far behind, well they better get to installing. I'm far less optimistic about folks' understanding of PHP versions and ability to upgrade. I'm also not clear that it's a compelling goal for us as a dev team to get to 5.6. The differences are mostly performance-based, and we don't care that much if you're wasting your own CPU cycles. We already moved to 7.0.
@Linc said:
I will say that @Tim argues for the complete opposite of this and that if someone is that far behind, well they better get to installing. I'm far less optimistic about folks' understanding of PHP versions and ability to upgrade. I'm also not clear that it's a compelling goal for us as a dev team to get to 5.6. The differences are mostly performance-based, and we don't care that much if you're wasting your own CPU cycles. We already moved to 7.0.
I agree with @Tim but it could be because I use shared hosting lol.
Part of me agrees with him too, but mostly it's the part of me that wouldn't have to answer all the emails and messages and discussions that would result.
Just upgraded to the beta in 'production' (I live life on the edge.), all seems fine so far - upgrade was smooth, nginx 1.4.6, Percona MySQL 5.6 and HHVM 3.15.1.
@painejake said:
Just upgraded to the beta in 'production' (I live life on the edge.), all seems fine so far - upgrade was smooth, nginx 1.4.6, Percona MySQL 5.6 and HHVM 3.15.1.
Will have a proper dig and test later tonight.
The host I use does not offer that edge thing lol.
I spent a couple of years in Harborne, which, as you'll know, was living life on the Edgbaston.
Haha! I'm don't live that far on the edge
@ItsVizionTv I'm a have a few VPS's and do a lot of R&D at work which helps promote my inner nerd
Everything looked really solid, I'll leave it to users to break now see if they find anything! I've moved onto testing on a more 'normal' hosting setup on CentOS7 with apache 2.4, PHP 5.4 + 5.6 and MySQL 5.6.
While at EOL I appreciate some providers still offer 5.4 as default so I bet a lot of people use it with or without knowing.
I'm usually quite good at breaking code I haven't written. Will have a good dig round.
@Linc said:
Another thing: I haven't really seen any feedback on how this beta is going for everyone. I don't use it because I'm always on the bleeding edge on my sites. I think this is fine, but the dearth of sign-offs from community members gives me pause.
I am really, really bad at QA. It's absolutely my weak spot.
This is what we need to support:
Apache & nginx
MySQL 5.0 thru 5.7
PHP 5.4 thru 7.0
As many common hosting providers as possible using the above.
To my knowledge, we are good on the first 3. The thing that drives me crazy with worry is that I drop this release and find out it breaks on Digital Ocean or GoDaddy or something.
if you are pretty confident of the first 3. How about making it easier for novice users to test.
to get this out of inertia since May (approx 5 months).
e.g. create a downloadable zip with the patches and commits thus far as indicated below and increment the beta version, or release the release candidate with the backports.
some individuals would probably want to test the latest commits of 2.3beta since it has security fixes. But they may not want to cherry pick the commits, and they may not want to fart around with composer and github. So a downloadable zip with latest commits would be a step forward to getting the release on its way out the door to new testers and a wider audience since you feel pretty good about the first 3 items in the list.
maybe someone with some smarts wil be able to give you some feedback on the install of the updated zip with commits and running on Digital Ocean and GoDaddy to get things to the next step.
Pragmatism is all I have to offer. Avoiding the sidelines and providing centerline pro-tips.
@Linc wrote: The thing that drives me crazy with worry is that I drop this release and find out it breaks on Digital Ocean or GoDaddy or something.
As far as I know GoDaddy uses automated installer program that also has an automated upgrade functionality. Thus there's the added complexity and risks involved with that platform. Linc's concern, I'm afraid, is justified.
@Linc said:
Another thing: I haven't really seen any feedback on how this beta is going for everyone. I don't use it because I'm always on the bleeding edge on my sites. I think this is fine, but the dearth of sign-offs from community members gives me pause.
I am really, really bad at QA. It's absolutely my weak spot.
This is what we need to support:
Apache & nginx
MySQL 5.0 thru 5.7
PHP 5.4 thru 7.0
As many common hosting providers as possible using the above.
To my knowledge, we are good on the first 3. The thing that drives me crazy with worry is that I drop this release and find out it breaks on Digital Ocean or GoDaddy or something.
if you are pretty confident of the first 3. How about making it easier for novice users to test.
to get this out of inertia since May (approx 5 months).
e.g. create a downloadable zip with the patches and commits thus far as indicated below and increment the beta version, or release the release candidate with the backports.
@linc said: I feel like we need a release committee to shepherd them the last mile. It's really that I don't have the bandwidth internally to do final QA and then be on-call if there is an emergency patch needed. To my knowledge, 2.3 is ready to go, but I don't have a wide test base to confirm that.
I have enough roadmap knowledge to land features in the correct order and pick when it's time to fork for release, but the final coordination seems to be beyond me.
@linc said: To be perfectly clear, I'm not suggesting I throw this on a group and tell them they're on their own. I can absolutely provide plenty of guidance and suggestions about how to finish this up. I just could use a hand, really. I have too many things pulling on me to be directly responsible for the open source release and expect it to go out on time.
some individuals would probably want to test the latest commits of 2.3beta since it has security fixes. But they may not want to cherry pick the commits, and they may not want to fart around with composer and github. So a downloadable zip with latest commits would be a step forward to getting the release on its way out the door to new testers and a wider audience since you feel pretty good about the first 3 items in the list.
maybe someone with some smarts wil be able to give you some feedback on the install of the updated zip with commits and running on Digital Ocean and GoDaddy to get things to the next step.
@Linc said:
Patches since the beta I have high confidence in. That's not the part I need tested further.
I don't doubt you, but the users who could conceivably test would probably want to test on the most bugfree and secure version of vanilla 2.3.x available. And providing a downloadable zip without requiring github and composer would get you a larger test audience.
I think the signals are crossed based on some tangential or oblique responses.
I totally understand your time is valuable and you are spread thin and things are pulling on you as you stated in previous comments.
My point if not clear was that some users may not want to attempt to test with the downloadable zip 2.3b1, since some some bug fixes and security patches are not included in the zip. A user might have the wherewithal and willingness to download the zip and install, but they might not want to install something with a security vulnerability. That is the reason I suggested a new zip either incremented beta or a rc1 might get you alot more users testing then depending on the average user (who could provide valuable testing) to use github and composer.
so to sum up - the idea was a new zip with security patches included would get more testers, even though you are confident about the patches and believe they don't need testing. But at the same time I understand that you may not be able to make a release for an extended amount of time due to things pulling you in different directions.
If the goal is to get the widest test audience available before issuing final release. releasing the most up-to-date zip of beta including the latest commits, security fixes, etc. would give your test audience something easy to install and test.
If somebody wanted me to test whether a pail held water and offered me a pail with a hole in it, I probably wouldn't waste my time, if they knew how to patch the hole in the bucket and could have provided me a bucket without any holes. But then again, I understand it is time consuming for you to produce another zip and it is another zip.
I do see the problem you are up against regarding feedback. Generally users won't tell you something works, even if they re going to test it. Also there has been a strong attempt to dissuade users from adopting the beta version if they are on production. But at some point there needs to be a stronger suggestion to test if ether the user community wants an upgraded product or if the vanilla development team wants to push out another version of open-source vanilla, and I can see why the community has to do more to test, because you guys make your money off the cloud version. So its easy for apathy on one side and time constraints on another to take the drivers seat and make the release avery, very slow process.
@Linc wrote: The thing that drives me crazy with worry is that I drop this release and find out it breaks on Digital Ocean or GoDaddy or something.
As far as I know GoDaddy uses automated installer program that also has an automated upgrade functionality. >Thus there's the added complexity and risks involved with that platform. Linc's concern, I'm afraid, is justified.
AFAIK, generally it is recommended not to use automated installer for vanilla. No one said his concerns weren't justified. So, @rbrahmson, you feel that automated installation is the primary complexity and concern preventing release? I have to AFAIK disagree. I believe users on godaddy platform could test https://www.godaddy.com/help/ftp-how-to-upload-files-96 via ftp, but if you rbrahmson believe it is an installation update problem, I can't argue since I don't use godaddy, nor have I ever, so anything I say about godaddy would just be an assumption and just as likely true as false. Just as I can't assume this automatic installation is lincoln's primary concern for not providing an incremental beyond 2.3b1. But time may be the reason.
Pragmatism is all I have to offer. Avoiding the sidelines and providing centerline pro-tips.
@River - I was referring to the "The thing that drives me crazy with worry is that I drop this release and find out it breaks"- I was thinking of dropping it not as a beta. A long while ago I had a GoDaddy account under which I used their autoinstall process (that's how I learned about Vanilla in the first place...). At the time, as a total novice I missed the recommendation not to use that process. I concur that automated installs are risky especially if they are set to get the new release automatically. I know it's not recommended and possibly irresponsible for admins to do that, but I am also sure there are users like that.
Comments
I will say that @Tim argues for the complete opposite of this and that if someone is that far behind, well they better get to installing. I'm far less optimistic about folks' understanding of PHP versions and ability to upgrade. I'm also not clear that it's a compelling goal for us as a dev team to get to 5.6. The differences are mostly performance-based, and we don't care that much if you're wasting your own CPU cycles. We already moved to 7.0.
I agree with @Tim but it could be because I use shared hosting lol.
Part of me agrees with him too, but mostly it's the part of me that wouldn't have to answer all the emails and messages and discussions that would result.
Best encourage people, blog about it an put that news in the dashboard feed.
grep is your friend.
Just upgraded to the beta in 'production' (I live life on the edge.), all seems fine so far - upgrade was smooth, nginx 1.4.6, Percona MySQL 5.6 and HHVM 3.15.1.
Will have a proper dig and test later tonight.
@painejake
I spent a couple of years in Harborne, which, as you'll know, was living life on the Edgbaston.
The host I use does not offer that edge thing lol.
@ItsVizionTv I'm a have a few VPS's and do a lot of R&D at work which helps promote my inner nerd
Everything looked really solid, I'll leave it to users to break now see if they find anything! I've moved onto testing on a more 'normal' hosting setup on CentOS7 with apache 2.4, PHP 5.4 + 5.6 and MySQL 5.6.
While at EOL I appreciate some providers still offer 5.4 as default so I bet a lot of people use it with or without knowing.
I'm usually quite good at breaking code I haven't written. Will have a good dig round.
if you are pretty confident of the first 3. How about making it easier for novice users to test.
to get this out of inertia since May (approx 5 months).
e.g. create a downloadable zip with the patches and commits thus far as indicated below and increment the beta version, or release the release candidate with the backports.
some individuals would probably want to test the latest commits of 2.3beta since it has security fixes. But they may not want to cherry pick the commits, and they may not want to fart around with composer and github. So a downloadable zip with latest commits would be a step forward to getting the release on its way out the door to new testers and a wider audience since you feel pretty good about the first 3 items in the list.
maybe someone with some smarts wil be able to give you some feedback on the install of the updated zip with commits and running on Digital Ocean and GoDaddy to get things to the next step.
Pragmatism is all I have to offer. Avoiding the sidelines and providing centerline pro-tips.
Patches since the beta I have high confidence in. That's not the part I need tested further.
As far as I know GoDaddy uses automated installer program that also has an automated upgrade functionality. Thus there's the added complexity and risks involved with that platform. Linc's concern, I'm afraid, is justified.
Will this come out this 2.3 or 2.4 since it seems to be done already?
https://blog.vanillaforums.com/features/fall-release-2016-new-look/
I don't doubt you, but the users who could conceivably test would probably want to test on the most bugfree and secure version of vanilla 2.3.x available. And providing a downloadable zip without requiring github and composer would get you a larger test audience.
I think the signals are crossed based on some tangential or oblique responses.
I totally understand your time is valuable and you are spread thin and things are pulling on you as you stated in previous comments.
My point if not clear was that some users may not want to attempt to test with the downloadable zip 2.3b1, since some some bug fixes and security patches are not included in the zip. A user might have the wherewithal and willingness to download the zip and install, but they might not want to install something with a security vulnerability. That is the reason I suggested a new zip either incremented beta or a rc1 might get you alot more users testing then depending on the average user (who could provide valuable testing) to use github and composer.
so to sum up - the idea was a new zip with security patches included would get more testers, even though you are confident about the patches and believe they don't need testing. But at the same time I understand that you may not be able to make a release for an extended amount of time due to things pulling you in different directions.
If the goal is to get the widest test audience available before issuing final release. releasing the most up-to-date zip of beta including the latest commits, security fixes, etc. would give your test audience something easy to install and test.
If somebody wanted me to test whether a pail held water and offered me a pail with a hole in it, I probably wouldn't waste my time, if they knew how to patch the hole in the bucket and could have provided me a bucket without any holes. But then again, I understand it is time consuming for you to produce another zip and it is another zip.
I do see the problem you are up against regarding feedback. Generally users won't tell you something works, even if they re going to test it. Also there has been a strong attempt to dissuade users from adopting the beta version if they are on production. But at some point there needs to be a stronger suggestion to test if ether the user community wants an upgraded product or if the vanilla development team wants to push out another version of open-source vanilla, and I can see why the community has to do more to test, because you guys make your money off the cloud version. So its easy for apathy on one side and time constraints on another to take the drivers seat and make the release avery, very slow process.
AFAIK, generally it is recommended not to use automated installer for vanilla. No one said his concerns weren't justified. So, @rbrahmson, you feel that automated installation is the primary complexity and concern preventing release? I have to AFAIK disagree. I believe users on godaddy platform could test https://www.godaddy.com/help/ftp-how-to-upload-files-96 via ftp, but if you rbrahmson believe it is an installation update problem, I can't argue since I don't use godaddy, nor have I ever, so anything I say about godaddy would just be an assumption and just as likely true as false. Just as I can't assume this automatic installation is lincoln's primary concern for not providing an incremental beyond 2.3b1. But time may be the reason.
Pragmatism is all I have to offer. Avoiding the sidelines and providing centerline pro-tips.
@River - I was referring to the "The thing that drives me crazy with worry is that I drop this release and find out it breaks"- I was thinking of dropping it not as a beta. A long while ago I had a GoDaddy account under which I used their autoinstall process (that's how I learned about Vanilla in the first place...). At the time, as a total novice I missed the recommendation not to use that process. I concur that automated installs are risky especially if they are set to get the new release automatically. I know it's not recommended and possibly irresponsible for admins to do that, but I am also sure there are users like that.
@ItsVizionTv The new Dashboard is slated for 2.4.
K.
ps:
It looks sexy lol.
it looks like it is out of beta based on the commit 3 days ago - version number 2.3
https://github.com/vanilla/vanilla/commit/1262bef91f70ec4ea9f84c150765deafc3ad732f
Pragmatism is all I have to offer. Avoiding the sidelines and providing centerline pro-tips.
Thanks, I most likely going to wait to open my new site once the 2.4 is released in a few weeks.
Man that is awfully optimistic.
I've found a couple changes to make, so I've nudged it more cautiously to just RC1 which I hope to release shortly.
Yeah, I just remember that you guys will be changing more than just the dashboard.
I'm most likely just going to wait for 2.3 to start my new site.