Some "Add-ons" Should be part of the default Vanilla release

tomisimo

Originally posted by ithcy

I don't think the point should be having fewer features than other forum software.
but that is the point, and it always will be. i don't think you guys are getting that.

Seems kinda counter-productive to me, but then it's Mark's baby. He's got a good thing going, and he can run it into the ground if he wants. Some of the best ideas are generated by really smart people, and then killed by those same people who refuse to change, or listen to others' input.

Minisweeper

I said I was backing out but I'm still passing time before my friend wants to sleep so here we go.

I think your coffee analagy is mis-aligned. Coffee is black (plain) as standard (vanilla). The coffee house (lussumo) provides milk, cream, sugar, muffins, whatever which customers can add to their coffee (extensions and themes (addons)) but doesnt force customers to use them. However (and here's where my analagy starts to lose it) they dont serve customers white coffee with sugar and then expect them to take the cream and sugar out (impossible in this case - i appreciate it's not in vanilla but meh) if they want black coffee.

tomisimo

@russlipton. What you propose might be the best trade-off, the best of both worlds. But you risk letting happen what's happen to Linux. I love Linux, and have my favorite distros, but if you're trying to convert a Windows or Mac user, you've lost them right from the get-go. I mean in Windows you have XP, Vista or 2000, in Mac you've got OSX, but with Linux you have (easily) 1,000+ distros to choose from. For any non-geek, they'll simply walk.

bjrn

Can you imagine a coffee shop that only served plain black coffee and nothing else

Can you imagine a shop where you order a coffee and get a coffee with sugar and milk and a scone and a muffin, perhaps a sandwich or two and so on and so on? With Vanilla you'll have to say "I would like some milk, please" instead of just having it thrown in.

tomisimo

Originally posted by Minisweeper

I said I was backing out but I'm still passing time before my friend wants to sleep so here we go.

I think your coffee analagy is mis-aligned. Coffee is black (plain) as standard (vanilla). The coffee house (lussumo) provides milk, cream, sugar, muffins, whatever which customers can add to their coffee (extensions and themes (addons)) but doesnt force customers to use them. However (and here's where my analagy starts to lose it) they dont serve customers white coffee with sugar and then expect them to take the cream and sugar out (impossible in this case - i appreciate it's not in vanilla but meh) if they want black coffee.

Ok, the coffee analogy got mangled, let me try again.

Imagine a burger joint that only served plain hamburger patties. Nothing else- no bun, no lettuce, no nothing. But there at the same burger joint, there are people lined up in a special section designated "extentions", each selling lettuce, ketchup, fries (to go with the burger), buns etc. There are even more than one person selling buns (different versions). So you want a burger, you go buy the meat (luckily they give it to you cooked), and you have to go over and get the bun and other condiments... but wait the bun you chose (downloaded) wasn't compatible with the meat, ok try again. I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Now that kind of restaurant might be "cool", but will it get many customers? I think not, after the first few novelty visits. If you want a burger, you just get a burger, you shouldn't have to give it that much effort.

russlipton

@tomisimo. I suppose flavor confusion is possible but I doubt it.

First, it is hard for me to imagine more than a handful of 'flavors' that a) are different enough from each other that they are each useful while b) nicely blending enough extensions to be a great noobie start without providing so many that noobies turn away.

Second (and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding), I don't see XP, Vista or 2000 as single, shared cores with clearly delineated extensions. Or, to put it differently, this is still Vanilla-plus-these-extensions; Vanilla-plus-those-extensions. It isn't Vanilla XP and Vanilla Vista.

And, by contrast with your Linux analogy, why would a non-geek be frustrated? I have to go through new learning curves with different Linux distros (ditto XP and Vista). I wouldn't have to do that with Vanilla flavors. It's always just the same Vanilla and the same extensions we have now.

(True, a flavor might be slightly out-of-sync version-wise but that is apples-and-oranges to your point, I believe).

ithcy

Some of the best ideas are generated by really smart people, and then killed by those same people who refuse to change, or listen to others' input.

so you're saying that you're really smart and that mark refuses to change or to listen to others' input?

by the way, everybody can just stop with the "375K". out of curiosity, and because i knew how wrong it was, i just downloaded all the extensions. together they're over 800K. plus vanilla, that's over 1150K.

tomisimo

Originally posted by garvin

Can you imagine a coffee shop that only served plain black coffee and nothing else

Can you imagine a shop where you order a coffee and get a coffee with sugar and milk and a scone and a muffin, perhaps a sandwich or two and so on and so on? With Vanilla you'll have to say "I would like some milk, please" instead of just having it thrown in.

You've made my point for me thanks. The coffee shop should *offer* all the other things (analogous to having them built into Vanilla), and you get to choose which ones you enable. What I meant by a coffee shop that only served plain black coffee, was that that's the only thing they have on their premises (like Vanilla).

Wanderer

As I said, these options should be there, not necessarily active but there.
You shouldn't have to go next door to get your muffins, milk and sugar!

Also the menu should be core so the prices and other options are kept up-to-date.

Menu says "Choc-chip Muffins $2.50" you go next door to get one, they say "We don't have choc-chip any more" by the time you go back to select another option, your coffee is cold!


(I love analogies)

tomisimo

Originally posted by ithcy

Some of the best ideas are generated by really smart people, and then killed by those same people who refuse to change, or listen to others' input.



so you're saying that you're really smart and that mark refuses to change or to listen to others' input?

by the way, everybody can just stop with the "375K". out of curiosity, and because i knew how wrong it was, i just downloaded all the extensions. together they're over 800K. plus vanilla, that's over 1150K.

No, I'm saying Mark is smart, but he shouldn't have a choke-hold on his baby, he should let it grow up. Give it those proverbial wings.


Over & out for now, I've got a few things to attend to. Be back later to see the can of worms I stired up

russlipton

I note (thinking to myself) that nothing prevents anyone from packaging up the Vanilla download plus some extensions, putting it on a server and letting folks know where they can get same ... even if it isn't officially supported by Mark or the community forum.

I'm not saying that by way of pushback to anyone (there is no clean solution to this conundrum) but just pointing out this is one of the benefits of open source software.

(I'm assuming, of course, that Mark wouldn't explicitly oppose the idea providing due credits were given and it wasn't pitched, let alone sold, as anything other than Vanilla+extensions. If Mark is agin it on principle, this would be a different matter. I'm sure his perspective would - and should - carry heavy weight).

bugsmi0

Thought I'd add my 2 cents to the rumble ;-) The way Vanilla currently is, it certainly wouldn't hurt it to add a few bells and whistles to make the discussions more pleasant as was suggested, to force users to hand code things in the posts is a form of punishment and will not attract users. We have to accept that most users are use to buttons and some automation features, like post edit, delete, bookrmark this, play with that, I really do not think adding some familiar things will make Vanilla anything less than what it is, it will still taste good. The extensions are easy to enable and disable so if anyone were to say this is what is preventing them from using Vanilla well they got some issues, what might be a good way to determine if an extension gets added to the core is by how many are using it or perhaps put a vote on it, all ratings above 19.39569835 percent gets added to the core on next release. I like the fact that I have control over what gets added to my forum, and what another might like is not something I might like so I think it becomes a personal preference as to what extensions you want to add, if you are too lazy to download and enable well you shouldn't be using Vanilla. The #1 feature that makes Vanilla unique is the focus on Discussion that wil never change even if you add some comfort tools for users, i think the fear of it becoming like the rest of the forums is nothing to worry about. It's not the forum software but how we are making use of it that matters. I stated in another post somewhere, you could perhpas take a standard forum and rearrange it like Vanilla and it will be more yummy without losing the bells and whistles but this would be some huge work that I have no desire to take part in so Vanilla is perfect because I can add things as I need them. I prefer to think of Vanilla as a (discussion) message board rather than a forum, I think its an insult to call this a forum lol

Wanderer

No solution Russ, you'd still have compatibility issues and breakages on Vanilla updates.

I think the whole point of the argu... er... discussion was to have (what some believe to be) essential features as core functionality.

ithcy

the problem is that everyone will never agree on what's 'essential' beyond what's already built-in.
i don't think anything listed in this thread is essential (ok, except comment protection).

sorry tomisimo, i didn't mean to get snarky. long day

Wanderer

ithcy, you don't think Quoting is essential?

I replied to Russ without quoting, in the meantime bugsmi0 slipped in his epistle and my reply sits in limbo with no context.

Try replying to an email 3 days after it was sent without quoting and see if the recipient has any clue what you're talking about.

Really for such clever people, you're not very "smart" <-- Quotes intended :-)

jimw

I think all of you have good points. But I didn't see anyone mention a comparison to another very popular piece of software called WordPress. It has a certain core set of functionality which can be built upon by those who want to develop a plugin to do something they need it to do. Vanilla is the same. It has a core set of functionality which makes it very useful right out of the box, just like WP. The great thing about both is the flexibility they provide to the user. And it's the support forum that is the real power behind the software. One thing I think is a really good idea is bundling extensions to add a flavor to Vanilla. I think WP comes packaged with 2 plugins which are really there as examples of what a plugin can do. It's definitley up to the user to customize it the way he or she wants it. The same with Vanilla. If someone has a strong preference for coffee-flavored Vanilla, then let him propose the extensions that should be in this bundle and test it so that they all work together. If some wants a chocolate-flavored Vanilla, then let him do the same. This is something that WP does not have, nor do I ever recall it being mentioned about bundling plugins. The only thing WP has with respect to adding plugins is that some themes come bundled with certain plugins or with the hooks built-in to work if you add the plugins. But then again themes are not that prevalent with Vanilla. So creating bundles would seem to work better with Vanilla.

russlipton

@Wanderer ... I do come down on the 'it isn't broken' side if this is about adding/integrating extensions to the core itself.

Re: compatibility issues and breakage with my proposal. Each flavor will be compatible with itself (e.g, the Vanilla version supplied AND the extensions supplied will work together). It is true that adding still more extensions might break something in the flavor. Caveat emptor. That would be true even if what I propose were in the core as you wish. Beyond whatever-is-in-the-core, one deals with possible breakage.

If a Vanilla update was not re-integrated by the flavor author (and the included extensions tested/fixed), then one would either have to stay with the flavor (and be a bit out-of-sync with the latest Vanilla) or integrate oneself and see what happened. As Vanilla continues to mature, I suspect that major releases will be few-and-far between. Being out-of-sync will often be too trivial to matter to a flavor user (who, typically, will not be super-technical or concerned about having version 2.8.2 instead of 2.8.1).

No solution will be ideal. But I'm still liking mine because I'm always unbiased about my own ideas ;-).

Minisweeper

One major problem with this 'flavours' theory is that it would encourage users to run outdated versions of vanilla. Version updates are there for a reason and generally running outdated software promotes insecurity and incompatibility (when it comes to the point that they wish to add an extension which isnt part of the flavour).

I'm still with ithcy here though. (I'll be honest - I wasnt actually aware that the comment protection thing was an extension but now I do know I'm still not very surprised given Mark's philosophy). The thing is, vanilla gives you what's NECESSARY to running a discussion board which is what it's all about.

Wanderer

My final word on the subject...

I have a friend who runs a bicycle shop.

He sells complete bikes, tourers, sports bikes, bikes for ladies, bikes for men, bikes for kids.

He also sells frames only, you then buy the handlebars you need, brakes, wheels etc.

Guess what he sells most of? The complete bikes of course.

In any case, nobody ever walks out with a frame-only and expects to ride it home!

There are items that are essential; the seat, wheels and brakes for starters.

No matter how much I like Vanilla, it is still missing essential features, not essential for me as a user but for the vast variety of people that use my forum. I know the functionality is there as extensions but the potential for conflicts is too great, just look at the trouble-shooting category! And what if an extension author gets too busy to update it when required?

Having said all this, I would hate for Vanilla to lose the simple look and plain feel it currently has. It certainly attracts the type of user I want to my forum (creative, passionate, open-minded, fun, entertaining, intelligent, non-techie), I also want to keep them coming back with all the basic functions and tools needed to effortlessly express themselves and easily read the expressions of others.

Interface people, interface, interface, interface!

Krak

Very funny thread. These posts should be retitled with a number, so we can recognize how many times the same thing has been posted, all which come to the same end.

What you are asking for is never going to happen, and I am thankful for that. Vanilla is as it should be. I do not believe Mark wants to go out of his way to attract people to use the software. If they use it, great. If not, too bad. It is here for the people that will appreciate it. How it works, and what it stands for. Not for the people that want to change it at every turn because "noobs" wont like it, or the "geeky" talk scares people away. Thats ridiculous. Can we get off the bloat bandwagon?

Is it really that difficult to download extensions? And like others have said, it would favor some over others. And I'd bet if everyone downloaded a preset Vanilla (which wouldn't make it very... vanilla, would it) they would never visit the add-on site and see all the awesome work people from the community have done.

I myself much prefer lighter software, with the ability to download the extras that I want, instead of forcefully being handed a load of shit. Hey, that sounds like Vanilla.