What is that Minty taste?

Kosmo

I can make up million reasons not to use Mint and another million to use it, aswell I can do that with Vanilla and so many other programs out there. Besides, why the hell people seem to thing that AJAX or little bling is so bad thing? I'd drool all over Vanilla if it had AJAX interface, it would make it more complex and slow it down, but it would atleast look cool. AJAX and such are the future, I have fully interactive operating system where I can make everything look the way I like with just few clicks of my mouse and I don't need to know about any kind of editing or language. So why shouldn't I have that freedom on my web application? Web applications have gone forward on a break neck speed on the last couple of years, but they still are extremely primitive and well.. the word dynamic can be only used on the content, when will it be used on the nterface aswell? Compared to other industries like games industry for example, there are about ten times the amount of developers on web based applications than there is on the games industry, but still games industry takes leaps in one year that is compered to ten years in web. We have the technology people, why not use it.

jesusphreak

Well looky here.

Weed is an open-source version of Mint written in Ruby on Rails. Get this. The work that has been done so far is only 72 hours worth.

Wow. That gives you an idea of how powerful Ruby on Rails is. I'm betting your could write Vanilla in it in less than a week. I am pretty much a beginning programmer and I am definitely a beginner to both Ruby and Rails. Yet I by myself have managed to get a registration/login system up and running. It really is amazing what you can do.

Weed

Mark

I'll say it again: the problem with vanilla development is not that it takes a long time. It's that I don't have a lot of time to do it.

jesusphreak

I never meant to say otherwise. Ruby on Rails does speed up development by quite a bit, though.

Minisweeper

no mark, the problem with vanilla development is that you do it, then you do it better, then you scrap the whole thing and do it amazingly. Then you go to sleep and your subconscious takes over and rewrites it incredibly. You could get it done in 1/4 the time if you just let your subconscious take over.

lech

Not that Ajax is entirely bad, but it does have it's drawbacks, mainly the one problem with it is that it's hinged on javascript. So it works for and against you either way, the only way around it is to have a fallback as plain posting methods for users who don't have JS enabled for whatever reason, or if something is misfiring. What would be nice is if Ajax was in fact some kind of browser default by means of simple calls instead of complex JS arrays. Much like XUL or (dare I say it) ActiveX perform things directly in the browser. It is after all what Ajax is in a sense mimicing to a certain degree. Now if we could get some browsers that fully support it and integrate it into their default routines, it would be a nice standard to see.

Kosmo

I heal your lech, but it is prettymuch the same problem web designers all over the world are facing, some browsers render CSS just right, some make minor changes and browsers like IE just toss the rules and fuck you in the ass. It's the same with JS, some people may have it enabled and some might not, it's just that when you have a program with AJAX interface you have to let your users know that you have to have JS enabled. Just like with normal windows applications, you need things like Direct X and such to run program, so you let your users know what they need.

Krak

I would never pay for web software, dont care what it is or what it does. There are many others out there that are free/opensource, and do the same thing. "Asking" for a donation is one thing (its not mandatory) but a fee? Hell no. Having a dual license I have no problems with, free for the little man, some $$$ for commercial use. That makes sense. Why would I shell out $30 for something to toss up on my website, or a gaming clan site...not gonna happen, and it doesnt make sense to. My $0.02

the aloha

i'll take those two cents as payment. thank you.

Kosmo

But Krak think about this, someone develops a e-commerce tool, you take it and turn it to your stores/companys internet shopping mall, make thousands of dollars per month. I think in that case you can afford to pay for the software, because I'm a supporter of the business model where you don't charge non profitable organizations and private people, but you make those who make money with your software OR use it as a part of a profitable site. As for the private people, yeah, they can donate money to them, hell you can donate money to anyone if you want, it's your money. And besides, Mint was ment for commercial kind of use, mainly a software the designers would propose if their client was asking for a statistics script.

Krak

Yeah I totally agree with charging commercial companies. If they are making $$$ off your product you should get a piece. But I've run into a few pieces of web software here and there that want to charge for it. Even though its targeted at, and the only users most likey to use it would be personal or clan type sites. Even if its only $10, that still matters to me, for my own website, nah. Take Mint for example. $30. What if I wanted to feel cool and have a nifty stat program to see how many people in Bulgaria are reading my blog about how I like to eat Hot Dogs. Should I really have to pay $30? But if I am using it on my site where I sell Hot Dogs, and Im using it as a marketing tool to see how many people in Bulgaria are actually interested in Hot Dogs, then yeah, I should fork over the $30 bucks. I think we are on the same page.

lech

This is really a double-edged sword. I think the real question is all wrapped up in what the product does as a whole and what it's potential uses are. Namely like Kosmo just said, if it can reap benefits which can basicaly pay for itself, then yes, it's probably worth it's price tag and much more. But if it's something that's fairly transparent I could see where people would look for a free alternative. Not to knock down mint, because I really enjoy ShortStats, but I honestly don't see myself liking it so much that I would go out and buy it. Mainly because I'm sure the source has either been compiled or obfuscated to such an extent that attempting to tinker with the display will prove futile and me probably kicking myself for purchasing it at all. That's just me though.

Kosmo

Back when Shaun was doing the Mint and we talked about wether he should have it free or not, I didn't think that it would be such a taboo, there were alot of people who said that since there are alot of programs that do these kind of things for free, we just figured that Mint just have to give users something worth paying, and basically, it's the interface, accessibility and very hustle free readings, as opposite to some statistics programs many hosts have that are totally out of control, like the host I use, you just can't make up what the hell the data is saying and what for. but I guess, world is just not ready to pay for good web applications like Min and Vanilla here, which is actually kinds sad, can't you see how many cool programs we are missing for that reason? What if Marks dream about independency won't happen, are we just going to say "fuck that, give me everything free, I don't care if you work long hours at work and then come here to do some community service just for fun"? He is only one man, and I'd love nothing more than seeing Mark independent software developer, making these great programs as a living, same thing I expect from my fans if I do a great game mod and people really love it, I'd expect them to support me in my decisions to go independet and maybe finding a company with like minded people to bring the fans more what they love and better quality. This is exactly why I don't talk with 'Windows Narrator' anymore, he is just so black & white kinds guy, it's always "window open, window closed" it's never between.

jesusphreak

but I guess, world is just not ready to pay for good web applications like Min and Vanilla here, which is actually kinds sad, can't you see how many cool programs we are missing for that reason? What if Marks dream about independency won't happen, are we just going to say "fuck that, give me everything free, I don't care if you work long hours at work and then come here to do some community service just for fun"? He is only one man, and I'd love nothing more than seeing Mark independent software developer, making these great programs as a living, same thing I expect from my fans if I do a great game mod and people really love it, I'd expect them to support me in my decisions to go independet and maybe finding a company with like minded people to bring the fans more what they love and better quality.

I mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again. With great MVC frameworks that automate a lot of the stuff for you like Ruby on Rails, a single person can code an app in a week that 2 years ago would've taken a team of 5 2 months.

The ease of software development, particularly web development (which has never been terribly complicated) is speeding up. Thus, you'll see many more great free programs. When there are great free alternatives, why pay for something?

Krak

I see both sides, but I personally would not pay for it. If I were making a piece of software and spent days on end on it, I would like to think I would release it for free. I like to be helpful. Giving to a community (hundreds of ppl) something that they enjoy can use, that will also help it thrive is payment enough (for me). But your right lech, what it does and what its potential uses are do have a bearing on its cost, free or not free. I dont think I would compare say a forum or some other web app to something as intensive as a game mod. If you ask me those are like apples and oranges. But really, lets say you did make a mod, and you charged for it. Now the user has to buy the game, and buy the mod. Thats like $80-100. I dont know any gamer (and I know quite a few) that would do that. I mean, maybe if the mod was iD quality, and had uber support. I guess you have to ask yourself a question when releasing something. Whats more important to you? A few bucks, or a much larger user base?

Kosmo

Again I take examples from game development, and web development and mod development are not actually that different, let me use examples, in web development you got your frameworks, like Ruby on Rails and so on, yeah, it makes developing a web application easy, but I wouldn't say that it is so muh different from mod making, example. UT2k4, you have your engine, you can make a model and have your small mod or mutator running in hours, you got your engine ready, your netcode, most of the gameplay elements can be recycled and so on and so on. Selling a mod without the actual game developers approval is illegal, AND if you know gamers, I'm pretty sure that they have already bought and paid for mods, Counter-Stike: Scource, Day of Defeat and many Source mods are not free. I have the advance of knowing alot of both worlds, and I don't think they are that different. And I could give you a living example, Natural Selection, a HL mod, it was free, but the user base got so big that the original designer/coder went and found a company to make games because many in the community are ready to pay for the game, but his mod team is still developing the free NS, just like Mark is planning, developing free applications and having some commercial ones to support him, a direction many web developers AND game developers should go, ILM has released alot of their modifications to FilmGimp and Blender, both free applications they use and they are making something non profitable. Best of both worlds.

Krak

Heh, I dont know any CS:S or DoD players... I hear bad things...but thats besides the point. I would still say they are different. Coding a web page/app in almost any language is uncomparable to 3D modelling and map making. The skill required and the large amounts of time invested is far superior. IMHO. But I understand what you are getting at. Good discussion guys.

Kosmo

Well, I don't know, the last mod I worked for, I made all the charater models for the game in a week and textured them in another, and I was faster than the coder who coded the game. Sad they broke it due to the different views of the mod leaders, so I had to pull my models from the mod and archive them to some dvd on the shelf :(

Krak

:( I've tried 3D modelling (various apps) and found it very difficult. Didn't take to it very well. Cant make anything other than those abstract star burst thingies.... But Dreamweaver and Photoshop... no problem.

Kosmo

I have been twiddling with 3d modelling for about 5 years or so, I have also made some sculptures, I have really good visual skills, I can construct anything in my head and just let my hands do the work and usually I can get things extracted from my head 1:1. But believe me, in the start, it was not easy, I couldn't even make a good looking box :D I like to try be a renaissance man, get my hands on everything, writing, scripting/coding and ofcourse graphics, all very useful skills for a game designer.