@fr (please, simplify than nickname! ), you have no idea how much I agree with you. I've read all sort of BS about outsourcing, written by the hundreds of charlatans out there who want to "be free" by dumping all the work on someone else "who doesn't need much money anyway". Of course, this last statement is assumed to be true by the naive followers, because it supports their dream of "earning by doing nothing". Best of all, these people call themselves "entrepreneurs". I've been one, and I know, for having tried it, that being a good Entrepreneur is an entirely different story.
By the way, I'm glad that you liked the article posted by Peregrine. I wrote it.
The only way to beat cheap competition is not to be cheap
That is true in many other fields also. When one put too low a price it can also discourage clients or buyers. If the price is too low it can be associated with bad quality. Not that it is true that low price=bad quality but somehow people have the idea that it can't be any good if it's that cheap.
Example, designer products i.e. handbags. Some of these cost more than what the average person holds inside their wallet !! They might have a brand name associated with say, Italy and handmade etc. Best leather hardware and even lowjack ! It costs 5000 dollars , it must be great. Upon further study one can read in tiny tiny print "made in china" .....(by little chinese children's hands) for pennies on the dollar, before one finds this out, the item seems quality and awesome. But after finding out the cost of making it versus the markup , it's clear that it can't be that good or that great, or is it? It is all a perception and what someone is willing to spend isn't it?
In German language, there are two words for the concept of "cheap":
Billig: this means cheap. In terms of price, but, more often than not, in terms of quality. I don't think I need to explain that this term can be easily used as a pejorative adjective.
Preiswert: this means, more or less, "value for price", and it's always positive. It indicates that something provides good value for the money paid.
@businessdad said:
In German language, there are two words for the concept of "cheap":
Billig: this means cheap. In terms of price, but, more often than not, in terms of quality. I don't think I need to explain that this term can be easily used as a pejorative adjective.
Preiswert: this means, more or less, "value for price", and it's always positive. It indicates that something provides good value for the money paid.
Beat the billig by being preiswert.
I love this. Curious: is this distinction used a lot in conversation or is it just for language geeks? I just feel like having two words like this could make business run a lot better. Maybe that's why Germany is such a machine.
@Todd said:
I love this. Curious: is this distinction used a lot in conversation or is it just for language geeks? I just feel like having two words like this could make business run a lot better. Maybe that's why Germany is such a machine.
These words are common language terms. You can find "billig!" written on some supermarket leaflets, to indicate that they have some special offer, but, as far as I could see, every shop uses "preiswert" on its door, window or advertisement. A simple example on a nail salon: "XYZ Nail Paradies - modern und preiswert" (I don't think I need to translate this).
Off topic
Since you mentioned the German efficiency, I'd like to point out that, while many Countries should learn from it, it can become quite irritating, as it's based on (often) "anally" strict observance of rules. When you are in Germany, don't be surprised if someone puts you in your place, even harshly, when you step out of the line.
Simple example: in the queue at the supermarket, I realised that I got something I didn't really need. Since I was half way through paying, I couldn't bring it back to the shelf (I usually do), so I took it out of the belt and put it aside. That's the dialogue that followed:
What are you doing?
I changed my mind, I don't want that anymore.
So you are just leaving it there? In case you haven't noticed, the till is not a dump. If all customers were behaving like you, I would spend all my time tidying up after your mess.
Another one, on the S Bahn (suburban train line). Lady with a trolley, she took a seat and put the trolley in front of her legs. It touched the elderly man in front of her, who kicked the trolley away and shouted at her that she should go somewhere else, instead of occupying with luggage space destined to people. Mortified, she got up and walked away.
One more, as it's one of the best: S Bahn station, newly built. We were not familiar with it, so we asked a Deutsche Bahn employee if that was the right track for the train we needed. The answer was "can't you read the signs?". Indeed, after further inspection there were several signs further ahead, but I didn't see them and I was in a hurry.
In short: if you want to "enjoy" the German system, be ready to learn each and every single rule, or expect to be reprimanded. It's not like in some Common Law Countries, where you can put your cat in the microwave because "it was not written that it should not be done".
You know, I learned that this can be countered when speaking german with eine grosse mexicanische accent. Then they are more interested in knowing 1. what the hell you said, 2. where the hell you come from.....
I have not encountered such things when in Germany, maybe I did not pay attention if they yelled at me, I assumed they were talking to someone behind me...what I do know is they tell it like it is. German is not a romantic language and there is no real way to be polite. The people who were not very nice were the croatian cab drivers.
To be fair to all people, assholes come with every country... 0_o
In short: if you want to "enjoy" the German system, be ready to learn each and every single rule, or expect to be reprimanded.
If more people in the US did this, then it would be a better place. Most people are not confrontational, so they don't say anything even though they are pissed inside. People think I'm being a dick when I confront them, but honestly I'm just trying to make it better for everyone else.
One of the the things that I have learnt about national industrial cultures like Japanese, German, etc is the the stereotype is never completely right.
I remember being told, and it was largely believed that the Japanese system at the time produced happier more productive workers.
Now Japan if anything has the total opposite kind of system on average, becuase the these these business leaders were found to have their heads in the clouds, pondering all these theories, and "aren't we wonderful", and it was basically a load of hype that didn't reflect the reality of the workforce.
Heh, interesting where this discussion is heading! As a German, I find it quite funny how people narrow down the stereotypes of Germany.
But as we are at it: What businessdad described are actually encounters I wouldn't associate with the "following the rules" part rather than the general approach of people here in Germany. Now, this is my personal experience and my or may not be accurate. However, from travelling a lot this is how I see it:
In general we Germans are more direct in our language and behaviour. We aren't very chatty and don't particularly like getting into small talks with strangers. While in the US, anybody would talk to you in the kindest words while waiting in the queue at the supermarket. Of course nothing deep or profound but they would rather be nice to you. However from my experience it is a LOT harder to really get in touch with people, to become accepted, let alone befriended. In Germany it is just the other way around. We don't chat a lot. "If I don't know you, I have nothing to tell you." However if we meet, let's say at a party or have dinner with a mutual friend, Germans will most likely be very interested where you are coming from, what you are doing and be actually interested in you as a person. Again, that's just my personal way of looking at it.
Now, to adress the situations you experienced at the supermarket: Germans are actually more direct in their language. While somewhere else in the world, people might just think to themselves "what a douche" or whatever, we actually address our issue. Not everybody does that of course but it is a general attitude that also poses problems at work when working with international clients. When I tell a coworker here in Germany that he did something wrong, I would just say "Hey man, that work you delivered yesterday was a total mess and I had to re-check everything before sending it to the client". When I would tell the same to my London based collegue, I would say "Hey Ben, I appreciate the work you have sent me yesterday. Thanks again for replying so quickly. After going over it, I rephrased some of the contents and then sent it to our client." I hope that helps a bit
@businessdad said:
I'd like to point out that, while many Countries should learn from it, it can become > quite irritating, as it's based on (often) "anally" strict observance of rules.
With 80 million people in a country the size of Montana, there are going to have to be a lot of rules for things to run smoothly.
yes this is true, I don't know how it is in all of Germany, but I personally did not experience the "rules" in fact I found it to be more liberal an less judgmental than in the USA.
I went to the Music Messe in Frankfurt on business , the way people do business in the USA is laughable by comparison. In Germany people do not shoot the shit so to speak, they do business and then they might be sociable. But it is taken seriously and they get to the point right away,they don't tell you their life story or talk about football.
I like that better than hypocrisy or false niceties.
Honestly, this is a thread that has legitimately run off topic, but in a great way.
There are a lot of threads in this community that run away and it drives me crazy, but it happens and that's the way things are. Aggressively splitting threads might be the answer, but I wonder if there is a better way.
I think it depends on how much you want the users of the forum to feel a sense of ownership/belonging.
I appreciate that you have different pressures, as this forum is mainly to provide help for Vanilla users, whereas ours is primarily a discussion forum, but on our forum I can't remember the last time a thread stayed on topic.
Our regular users like to have an amble down whatever byways take their fancy, and we've learned to just roll with it.
It certainly makes them feel more as though it is 'their' forum (which it is, of course.)
Ok, after discussing the need of a developer, the underpayment of developers and the German working morale, let's discuss how we can manage threads that become off-topic in a better way than splitting them
Let's just make it the thread about the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything!
Comments
@fr (please, simplify than nickname!
), you have no idea how much I agree with you. I've read all sort of BS about outsourcing, written by the hundreds of charlatans out there who want to "be free" by dumping all the work on someone else "who doesn't need much money anyway". Of course, this last statement is assumed to be true by the naive followers, because it supports their dream of "earning by doing nothing". Best of all, these people call themselves "entrepreneurs". I've been one, and I know, for having tried it, that being a good Entrepreneur is an entirely different story.
By the way, I'm glad that you liked the article posted by Peregrine. I wrote it.
My shop | About Me
That is true in many other fields also. When one put too low a price it can also discourage clients or buyers. If the price is too low it can be associated with bad quality. Not that it is true that low price=bad quality but somehow people have the idea that it can't be any good if it's that cheap.
Example, designer products i.e. handbags. Some of these cost more than what the average person holds inside their wallet !! They might have a brand name associated with say, Italy and handmade etc. Best leather hardware and even lowjack ! It costs 5000 dollars , it must be great. Upon further study one can read in tiny tiny print "made in china" .....(by little chinese children's hands) for pennies on the dollar, before one finds this out, the item seems quality and awesome. But after finding out the cost of making it versus the markup , it's clear that it can't be that good or that great, or is it? It is all a perception and what someone is willing to spend isn't it?
quantity over quality has lowered the standards
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
In German language, there are two words for the concept of "cheap":
Beat the billig by being preiswert.
My shop | About Me
If you go to Odesk or Elance as a developer, you've already lost.
@businessdad It's funny because there are many businesses called Billig, example BilligJewlers.com lol
In dutch, gratis is the new billig lmao ...Here is a nice slogan fur dich
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
I could not agree more. That's why I didn't specify "as a Developer".
My shop | About Me
This is what happens when people realize they have been outsourced ;
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
I love this. Curious: is this distinction used a lot in conversation or is it just for language geeks? I just feel like having two words like this could make business run a lot better. Maybe that's why Germany is such a machine.
These words are common language terms. You can find "billig!" written on some supermarket leaflets, to indicate that they have some special offer, but, as far as I could see, every shop uses "preiswert" on its door, window or advertisement. A simple example on a nail salon: "XYZ Nail Paradies - modern und preiswert" (I don't think I need to translate this).
Off topic
Since you mentioned the German efficiency, I'd like to point out that, while many Countries should learn from it, it can become quite irritating, as it's based on (often) "anally" strict observance of rules. When you are in Germany, don't be surprised if someone puts you in your place, even harshly, when you step out of the line.
Simple example: in the queue at the supermarket, I realised that I got something I didn't really need. Since I was half way through paying, I couldn't bring it back to the shelf (I usually do), so I took it out of the belt and put it aside. That's the dialogue that followed:
Another one, on the S Bahn (suburban train line). Lady with a trolley, she took a seat and put the trolley in front of her legs. It touched the elderly man in front of her, who kicked the trolley away and shouted at her that she should go somewhere else, instead of occupying with luggage space destined to people. Mortified, she got up and walked away.
One more, as it's one of the best: S Bahn station, newly built. We were not familiar with it, so we asked a Deutsche Bahn employee if that was the right track for the train we needed. The answer was "can't you read the signs?". Indeed, after further inspection there were several signs further ahead, but I didn't see them and I was in a hurry.
In short: if you want to "enjoy" the German system, be ready to learn each and every single rule, or expect to be reprimanded. It's not like in some Common Law Countries, where you can put your cat in the microwave because "it was not written that it should not be done".
My shop | About Me
You know, I learned that this can be countered when speaking german with eine grosse mexicanische accent. Then they are more interested in knowing 1. what the hell you said, 2. where the hell you come from.....
I have not encountered such things when in Germany, maybe I did not pay attention if they yelled at me, I assumed they were talking to someone behind me...what I do know is they tell it like it is. German is not a romantic language and there is no real way to be polite. The people who were not very nice were the croatian cab drivers.
To be fair to all people, assholes come with every country... 0_o
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
If more people in the US did this, then it would be a better place. Most people are not confrontational, so they don't say anything even though they are pissed inside. People think I'm being a dick when I confront them, but honestly I'm just trying to make it better for everyone else.
One of the the things that I have learnt about national industrial cultures like Japanese, German, etc is the the stereotype is never completely right.
I remember being told, and it was largely believed that the Japanese system at the time produced happier more productive workers.
Now Japan if anything has the total opposite kind of system on average, becuase the these these business leaders were found to have their heads in the clouds, pondering all these theories, and "aren't we wonderful", and it was basically a load of hype that didn't reflect the reality of the workforce.
grep is your friend.
Heh, interesting where this discussion is heading! As a German, I find it quite funny how people narrow down the stereotypes of Germany.
But as we are at it: What businessdad described are actually encounters I wouldn't associate with the "following the rules" part rather than the general approach of people here in Germany. Now, this is my personal experience and my or may not be accurate. However, from travelling a lot this is how I see it:
In general we Germans are more direct in our language and behaviour. We aren't very chatty and don't particularly like getting into small talks with strangers. While in the US, anybody would talk to you in the kindest words while waiting in the queue at the supermarket. Of course nothing deep or profound but they would rather be nice to you. However from my experience it is a LOT harder to really get in touch with people, to become accepted, let alone befriended. In Germany it is just the other way around. We don't chat a lot. "If I don't know you, I have nothing to tell you." However if we meet, let's say at a party or have dinner with a mutual friend, Germans will most likely be very interested where you are coming from, what you are doing and be actually interested in you as a person. Again, that's just my personal way of looking at it.
Now, to adress the situations you experienced at the supermarket: Germans are actually more direct in their language. While somewhere else in the world, people might just think to themselves "what a douche" or whatever, we actually address our issue. Not everybody does that of course but it is a general attitude that also poses problems at work when working with international clients. When I tell a coworker here in Germany that he did something wrong, I would just say "Hey man, that work you delivered yesterday was a total mess and I had to re-check everything before sending it to the client". When I would tell the same to my London based collegue, I would say "Hey Ben, I appreciate the work you have sent me yesterday. Thanks again for replying so quickly. After going over it, I rephrased some of the contents and then sent it to our client." I hope that helps a bit
With 80 million people in a country the size of Montana, there are going to have to be a lot of rules for things to run smoothly.
yes this is true, I don't know how it is in all of Germany, but I personally did not experience the "rules" in fact I found it to be more liberal an less judgmental than in the USA.
I went to the Music Messe in Frankfurt on business , the way people do business in the USA is laughable by comparison. In Germany people do not shoot the shit so to speak, they do business and then they might be sociable. But it is taken seriously and they get to the point right away,they don't tell you their life story or talk about football.
I like that better than hypocrisy or false niceties.
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
Can the moderator please change the title of this thread to
"Billig Stereotypes, perceived stereotypes with particular reference to Germany - and a smattering of preiswert 'need to find a developer'"
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
Honestly, this is a thread that has legitimately run off topic, but in a great way.
There are a lot of threads in this community that run away and it drives me crazy, but it happens and that's the way things are. Aggressively splitting threads might be the answer, but I wonder if there is a better way.
@Todd
I think it depends on how much you want the users of the forum to feel a sense of ownership/belonging.
I appreciate that you have different pressures, as this forum is mainly to provide help for Vanilla users, whereas ours is primarily a discussion forum, but on our forum I can't remember the last time a thread stayed on topic.
Our regular users like to have an amble down whatever byways take their fancy, and we've learned to just roll with it.
It certainly makes them feel more as though it is 'their' forum (which it is, of course.)
Todd - my comment about changing the title was just an attempt at humor.
since the discussion went off-topic after the first comment by the OP, it's fair game.
In this case I agree with
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
Ok, after discussing the need of a developer, the underpayment of developers and the German working morale, let's discuss how we can manage threads that become off-topic in a better way than splitting them
Let's just make it the thread about the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything!