@50sQuiff said:
It's worth pointing out again at this juncture that per the GPL, any publicly distributed plugin for a GPL product is itself GPL-licensed by definition, except for cases where the plugin is a separate executable.
Actually @Lincoln's disclosure overrules that. Trust me I have checked this out legally.
GPL cannot (even if it tries), overrule the originator and issuer's policy. You are are able to use you discretion on stuff like that.
But definitely worth avoiding GPL3 with a barge pole, unless you want further unwanted side effects. GPL2 is radical enough.
@50sQuiff said:
It's worth pointing out again at this juncture that per the GPL, any publicly distributed plugin for a GPL product is itself GPL-licensed by definition, except for cases where the plugin is a separate executable.
That's WordPress's (and many others') argument. It's unsettled law because, as far as I know, no one wants to risk challenging it in court. Settling it doesn't actually help anyone (in my opinion). WP governs its ecosystem effectively with social pressure. We disagree with their position, but we still wouldn't release a BSD-licensed WordPress plugin. Licensing arguments waste time and energy.
//edit: For the record, I'm speaking from recollection of early discussions with the founders; I'm not someone who sets official policy on this sort of thing.
@Lincoln said:
//edit: For the record, I'm speaking from recollection of early discussions with the founders; I'm not someone who sets official policy on this sort of thing.
This was actually used in a court case brought by Wordpress. This is why it is hot topic for me.
It was brought essentially becuase of copyright violation on a theme of all things, however they used this instead to achieve their aim.
The Judge said the GPL was testable and enforceable. However I highly doubt that when more complex arrangements where there no single originator, that they will take the same view in every case.
@todd Being new to Vanilla, it is somewhat frustrating to see the software out there for free, and the very polished and feature filled hosted option.
It probably wouldn't hurt being upfront about which features in the hosted option will not migrate over to the OSS branch. This would give a much better idea of what someone who uses the OSS branch will have to build themselves or seek plugins for.
Something that would help me and I'm sure it wouldn't hurt others is improvements in filtering published plugins. Currently I can't even find all of the Approved plugins. It is great that there are lots of plugins out there, but having to do trial and error to see which ones work and which ones work in my community is a pain. Adding categories would be a nice addition to the plugin directory.
Another option, that I'm sure would get push back from some in the community, is to sell some of the plugins. Keep the core OSS, but sell specific plugins in the situation that someone wants to run on their own servers.
Another option, that I'm sure would get push back from some in the community, is to sell some of the plugins.
Not be a party pooper but I don't think business advise is something desirable, people have come up with all sorts of things and it really is not their business literally how they run theirs. Some things they don't want to sell and they have their reasons. However unfortunate it may be.
It probably wouldn't hurt being upfront about which features in the hosted option will not migrate over to the OSS branch
Those are well known features they are not hiding anything as far as I know ...
But the OS framework contains the roots of those features allowing you to create your own.
Something that would help me and I'm sure it wouldn't hurt others is improvements in filtering published plugins.
Yes we have also discussed that. How could they be filtered best ? What categories could you create that would easily identify plugins?
I can think of , Decorative plugins , those that add images or designs or something about the looks of something.
Utility plugins , those that do certain jobs like purging spam or crons or anything that is utilitarian. Editors
Social Plugins, self explanatory
I think that's a start.
But if you input what you are looking for in the search bar for the addons you find it all quite easy.
example : Want Category something? just input category and any plugin that has to do with category will show up.
Those are well known features they are not hiding anything as far as I know ... But the OS framework contains the roots of those features allowing you to create your own.
Being new to Vanilla after a coworker say "Vanilla is great, go check it out on Harmonix, Penny Arcade, RSI!" and being impressed by what I saw to grab the latest release and deploying to a local test only to be humbled and disappointed to see majority of the features that would make a community competitive are only available in the hosted solution.
They might not be hiding it, but they sure don't make it easy. Especially since it is a very back and forth between .com and .org. It gives the impression similar to Wordpress.org vs Wordpress.com, but after trying the OS branch, it doesn't even feel like the same application. Call it silly, but having a list of features and which versions they are supported in would be great, example similar to this, http://vanillaforums.com/info/plugins
Just saying hosted has "premium features" without clearly listing those features is somewhat disingenuous.
Yes we have also discussed that. How could they be filtered best ? What categories could you create that would easily identify plugins?
http://codecanyon.net/ is great in how they have broken things down making is very easy to look at all my options instead of having to search and hope I get all the results. I find myself going through all 20 pages to make sure I didn't accidentally pass something by.
Probably another thing at least to help new users to Vanilla is having plugins from Vanilla. An example would be Atlassian, who makes tons of plugins for their products and the author is always Atlassian, https://marketplace.atlassian.com That instantly makes me want to try that plugin to see the features it adds.
Of course adding the ability to search by author would be the first step.
But if you input what you are looking for in the search bar for the addons you find it all quite easy.
If the authors have hive mind that works, but everyone has their own way of saying the same thing.
Not be a party pooper but I don't think business advise is something desirable, people have come up with all sorts of things and it really is not their business literally how they run theirs.
So I guess I'll bite my tongue? Great customer feedback loop.
I'm impressed with what Vanilla can do and I would love to use it in building a future community, but some clients require everything to run on their hardware for whatever reason they have, and in those cases I have to look at other options because the self hosted options are more full featured and less work.
@shinyidol: just to tell you that you are not alone with your opinion. i'm with you and was one of those who keept bugging the core team with these questions. The OS tribe of Vanilla does have a hard time to grow. My opinion is that the OS tribe could help to grow the Hosted version much more if better supported by it's root. Vanillas crew does try to make a lot of marketing activities like OS critis award or their new blog. A happier OS community would tripple this effect easily.
And so a lot of people move away from Vanilla and especially theme developers and plugin developers are on thin ice if they invest time. We have a problem of monetizing our work at VanillaSkins.com ourselves. Peregrine, Businessdad, Shadowdare and some other heroes here could probably develop so cool things and get payed for it, instead it feels to me like begging for donations. A lively OS scene would be different and could contribute amazing to the hosted version.
BUT when we work with Vanilla, we have to understand the situation is different. We have to organize almost everything around by ourselves, documentation, plugins, marketing, etc. The Vanilla team has stated clearly that their business model is very different from what a lot of people expect from a OS/Hosted-situation.
I had to learn it the hard way too in this forum here. I'm still with my opinion and i watch other forum solutions with a more open appeal very close.
I hope i'm not getting killed now.
PS: Nevertheless we have very cool dudes, girls and superheroes here and we always need smart people to join.
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@shinyidol said:
Call it silly, but having a list of features and which versions they are supported in would be great
Every feature is available here, too. Everything is a plugin, though and because you pay no one, you would have to keep it up and running by yourself and no one will guarantee you that you do not have to invest time and effort by yourself in order to make them work the way you want to.
Go with the hosted solution and you will get the guarantee that the plugins are playing nicely together.
To my understanding, that's the main difference when talking about features of both versions.
It's like leasing a new car vs. buying a used one. You could expect the leased new car to work. Your used car might take some effort before you can use it, but you will be able to tune it any way you want.
I have a clear understanding of the difference between the SaaS and self hosting and use either when it best fits the requirements of the project.
Your analogy is invalid, as when I walk into the showroom I'm being shown two products that are the same as far as I can tell with a small asterisk of Premium features. What does that even mean? When I see that I think 24/7 support, call support, account manager, not features that you would expect to be core to the application. It is only until after I take it off the lot that I find out there isn't wheels, windows, doors, steering wheel, or seats, but an instruction manual on how to build them yourself and a flyer to the local junkyard to get things that might do the same thing as the model on the showroom floor.
As I said as well, what if I want the features that Vanilla but not on SaaS due to requirements of the project? I should go use plugins from the community? Sadly I would explore other options and Vanilla loses another potential community.
Everything might available, but not from Vanilla, which is really my point.
@shinyidol when you get free software you get what you get, it is as simple as that.
OS is for contributers primarily, not for leaching, if you want to moan about that be my guest. Don't expect anyone who gets it to take the slightest bit of notice.
Obviously your aren't really aware of how much effort goes into producing software, and all software need to be funded or at least the developers not starve.
The fact that you not only get an extensible framework, several applications, plugins an the, clearly isn't enough for you.
To answer you question if something isn't already contributed to the community, then why no lead by example an make it or commission it.
If it meets requirements fine, if it doesn't meet you requirements, then it doesn't meet your requirements. Find something that meets you requirements then.
when you get free software you get what you get, it is as simple as that.
I've been using Wordpress for years, and I am very happy with it. Out of the box it does what I want. If it doesn't I either extend myself or seek a plugin that someone has already wrote.
I'm not expecting Vanilla to take my calls on how to fix my self hosted forum. If you thought that, I must have mistyped someplace.
OS is for contributers primarily, not for leaching, if you want to moan about that be my guest.
You have to take the good with the bad when it comes to OS. You are dismissing a large userbase by thinking that anyone who doesn't contribute has no value. Not to mention developing an club like behavior that doesn't welcome new users or ideas.
Obviously your aren't really aware of how much effort goes into producing software, and all software need to be funded or at least the developers not starve.
Thanks for discrediting the last 15 years of my life and my entire professional career.
Again, clear that the Vanilla community isn't the most inviting, which appears to be one of the major problems.
In general, the Vanilla community on this forum (comprising volunteers, it should be noted, giving up their own time) is very helpful, often going to great lengths to ensure a question is resolved.
In addition, developers have been very generous with their time and skills, providing plugins which extend the OS Vanilla to meet many of the hosted features.
If your experience has been less than shiny happy, at least consider that it may not all be the fault of the community.
Thanks @whu606. Being new I'm sure I'll ask a lot of stupid questions as I don't have knowledge of the inner workings, directions, and opinions of the community at large.
As I said above, Vanilla looks to be a great option with some excellent features and I would love to use it in future deployments.
As I said as well, what if I want the features that Vanilla but not on SaaS due to requirements of the project? I should go use plugins from the community? Sadly I would explore other options and Vanilla loses another potential community.
Everything might available, but not from Vanilla, which is really my point.
I'm not expecting Vanilla to take my calls on how to fix my self hosted forum. If you thought that, I must have mistyped someplace.
I am confused about your point. I thought you said are a developer, if you are you may actually like the approach. In vanilla hooks are implicit, you don't register them individually. The class inherits the pluggable capacity.
When Reactions and Badges wasn't released as some expected, there was a lot of hoopla, but since then there have been a lot of community solutions that are pretty good too.
I too have bugged for better official documentation, it is on it way I'm assured, but we have to be patient. The core team have a lot of priorities.
You have to take the good with the bad when it comes to OS. You are dismissing a large userbase by thinking that anyone who doesn't contribute has no value. Not to mention developing an club like behavior that doesn't welcome new users or ideas.
If they add value they are by definition contributing in my book. It is about attitude rather than if they are programmers or not. I'm not dismissing those, who contribute in other ways.
If you avoid asking 'How do I get badges/reactions', and work out how to get rid of the 'Bonk' message (answered some hundreds of times on the forum) to get to the actual error, you will probably be fine.
The Vanilla team have a proprietary version of Vanilla, which they host, and run on the business model which makes most sense to them.
This community supports those who, for whatever reason, want to self-host the OS Vanilla.
If you use the OS version, and get stuck, there will almost always be someone who will help you get over it.
If you aren't happy using plugins created by the OS community, then the OS version is probably not for you.
A guy with a crocodile under his arm walks into a bar
Guy with Crocodile says "Do you serve Software Developers with lots of Experience"?
Bartender says: "Sure, no problem"
Guy with Crocodile says: "Ok, a beer for me, and a software developer for my crocodile."
there is another joke I can't remember exactly:
His beef is "it is not easy for his clients to use (the clients who pay him) and wants the community and developers to make this free software something different" so he can recommend it to his clients and make money.
Seems to me that is what the guy who has clients is supposed to provide. added value for recommending certain OS software.
At the same time - anyone can do a writeup or add to wiki or make pull requests to make things as they think it should be done.
The Vanilla team have a proprietary version of Vanilla, which they host, and run on the business model which makes most sense to them.
Not quite true. If you don't release something as thousands who use their own modified OS software don't, the license doesn't apply. In the case of these license, it concern released code and providing the source. it does not apply to unreleased code, and few OS licenses do.
So in short the SaaS doesn't need to be licensed different. Just like you aren't forced to release the custom addons you use on your site.
While this community is small, you will find a wealth of developers, plugins, and themes. They will help you get started in the right direction with a little prodding.
As far as the addon repository goes, only addons that are written by the dev team are approved. So... disregard that tag for the moment. While it is admirable to only want to run 'approved code', it is nearly meaningless in this repo. I highly suggest you set up a development forum, load up some content (or import an existing forum), and start configuring it to meet your needs. We are here to help if you have any questions or run into any issues.
If you do run into an issue with a specific plugin, ask a question under the plugin and you have a direct line to the developer of the plugin. While no one is required to help, you will often find a helping hand. Do yourself a favor and search the forums for a solution first.
The most sought after features on the OS version, in my opinion, are: Reactions/Badges, Advanced Search, and the new editor. Each of these sought after features has the community analogous plugin. Search and ye shall find.
Comments
Actually @Lincoln's disclosure overrules that. Trust me I have checked this out legally.
GPL cannot (even if it tries), overrule the originator and issuer's policy. You are are able to use you discretion on stuff like that.
But definitely worth avoiding GPL3 with a barge pole, unless you want further unwanted side effects. GPL2 is radical enough.
grep is your friend.
That's WordPress's (and many others') argument. It's unsettled law because, as far as I know, no one wants to risk challenging it in court. Settling it doesn't actually help anyone (in my opinion). WP governs its ecosystem effectively with social pressure. We disagree with their position, but we still wouldn't release a BSD-licensed WordPress plugin.
Licensing arguments waste time and energy.
//edit: For the record, I'm speaking from recollection of early discussions with the founders; I'm not someone who sets official policy on this sort of thing.
Yes. To my knowledge, Vanilla has always been under GNU GPL2 and I know of no plans to change.
//edit: And, personally, I'd discourage anyone from releasing a GPL3'd addon. It'd just get friggin' complicated and give us all a headache.
This was actually used in a court case brought by Wordpress. This is why it is hot topic for me.
It was brought essentially becuase of copyright violation on a theme of all things, however they used this instead to achieve their aim.
The Judge said the GPL was testable and enforceable. However I highly doubt that when more complex arrangements where there no single originator, that they will take the same view in every case.
grep is your friend.
@todd Being new to Vanilla, it is somewhat frustrating to see the software out there for free, and the very polished and feature filled hosted option.
It probably wouldn't hurt being upfront about which features in the hosted option will not migrate over to the OSS branch. This would give a much better idea of what someone who uses the OSS branch will have to build themselves or seek plugins for.
Something that would help me and I'm sure it wouldn't hurt others is improvements in filtering published plugins. Currently I can't even find all of the Approved plugins. It is great that there are lots of plugins out there, but having to do trial and error to see which ones work and which ones work in my community is a pain. Adding categories would be a nice addition to the plugin directory.
Another option, that I'm sure would get push back from some in the community, is to sell some of the plugins. Keep the core OSS, but sell specific plugins in the situation that someone wants to run on their own servers.
Not be a party pooper but I don't think business advise is something desirable, people have come up with all sorts of things and it really is not their business literally how they run theirs. Some things they don't want to sell and they have their reasons. However unfortunate it may be.
Those are well known features they are not hiding anything as far as I know ...
But the OS framework contains the roots of those features allowing you to create your own.
Yes we have also discussed that. How could they be filtered best ? What categories could you create that would easily identify plugins?
I can think of , Decorative plugins , those that add images or designs or something about the looks of something.
Utility plugins , those that do certain jobs like purging spam or crons or anything that is utilitarian. Editors
Social Plugins, self explanatory
I think that's a start.
But if you input what you are looking for in the search bar for the addons you find it all quite easy.
example : Want Category something? just input category and any plugin that has to do with category will show up.
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
Being new to Vanilla after a coworker say "Vanilla is great, go check it out on Harmonix, Penny Arcade, RSI!" and being impressed by what I saw to grab the latest release and deploying to a local test only to be humbled and disappointed to see majority of the features that would make a community competitive are only available in the hosted solution.
They might not be hiding it, but they sure don't make it easy. Especially since it is a very back and forth between .com and .org. It gives the impression similar to Wordpress.org vs Wordpress.com, but after trying the OS branch, it doesn't even feel like the same application. Call it silly, but having a list of features and which versions they are supported in would be great, example similar to this, http://vanillaforums.com/info/plugins
Just saying hosted has "premium features" without clearly listing those features is somewhat disingenuous.
http://codecanyon.net/ is great in how they have broken things down making is very easy to look at all my options instead of having to search and hope I get all the results. I find myself going through all 20 pages to make sure I didn't accidentally pass something by.
Probably another thing at least to help new users to Vanilla is having plugins from Vanilla. An example would be Atlassian, who makes tons of plugins for their products and the author is always Atlassian, https://marketplace.atlassian.com That instantly makes me want to try that plugin to see the features it adds.
Of course adding the ability to search by author would be the first step.
If the authors have hive mind that works, but everyone has their own way of saying the same thing.
So I guess I'll bite my tongue? Great customer feedback loop.
I'm impressed with what Vanilla can do and I would love to use it in building a future community, but some clients require everything to run on their hardware for whatever reason they have, and in those cases I have to look at other options because the self hosted options are more full featured and less work.
@shinyidol: just to tell you that you are not alone with your opinion. i'm with you and was one of those who keept bugging the core team with these questions. The OS tribe of Vanilla does have a hard time to grow. My opinion is that the OS tribe could help to grow the Hosted version much more if better supported by it's root. Vanillas crew does try to make a lot of marketing activities like OS critis award or their new blog. A happier OS community would tripple this effect easily.
And so a lot of people move away from Vanilla and especially theme developers and plugin developers are on thin ice if they invest time. We have a problem of monetizing our work at VanillaSkins.com ourselves. Peregrine, Businessdad, Shadowdare and some other heroes here could probably develop so cool things and get payed for it, instead it feels to me like begging for donations. A lively OS scene would be different and could contribute amazing to the hosted version.
BUT when we work with Vanilla, we have to understand the situation is different. We have to organize almost everything around by ourselves, documentation, plugins, marketing, etc. The Vanilla team has stated clearly that their business model is very different from what a lot of people expect from a OS/Hosted-situation.
I had to learn it the hard way too in this forum here. I'm still with my opinion and i watch other forum solutions with a more open appeal very close.
I hope i'm not getting killed now.
PS: Nevertheless we have very cool dudes, girls and superheroes here and we always need smart people to join.
Every feature is available here, too. Everything is a plugin, though and because you pay no one, you would have to keep it up and running by yourself and no one will guarantee you that you do not have to invest time and effort by yourself in order to make them work the way you want to.
Go with the hosted solution and you will get the guarantee that the plugins are playing nicely together.
To my understanding, that's the main difference when talking about features of both versions.
It's like leasing a new car vs. buying a used one. You could expect the leased new car to work. Your used car might take some effort before you can use it, but you will be able to tune it any way you want.
I have a clear understanding of the difference between the SaaS and self hosting and use either when it best fits the requirements of the project.
Your analogy is invalid, as when I walk into the showroom I'm being shown two products that are the same as far as I can tell with a small asterisk of Premium features. What does that even mean? When I see that I think 24/7 support, call support, account manager, not features that you would expect to be core to the application. It is only until after I take it off the lot that I find out there isn't wheels, windows, doors, steering wheel, or seats, but an instruction manual on how to build them yourself and a flyer to the local junkyard to get things that might do the same thing as the model on the showroom floor.
As I said as well, what if I want the features that Vanilla but not on SaaS due to requirements of the project? I should go use plugins from the community? Sadly I would explore other options and Vanilla loses another potential community.
Everything might available, but not from Vanilla, which is really my point.
@shinyidol: > Yaga < a little and your soul will shine...
@shinyidol when you get free software you get what you get, it is as simple as that.
OS is for contributers primarily, not for leaching, if you want to moan about that be my guest. Don't expect anyone who gets it to take the slightest bit of notice.
Obviously your aren't really aware of how much effort goes into producing software, and all software need to be funded or at least the developers not starve.
The fact that you not only get an extensible framework, several applications, plugins an the, clearly isn't enough for you.
To answer you question if something isn't already contributed to the community, then why no lead by example an make it or commission it.
If it meets requirements fine, if it doesn't meet you requirements, then it doesn't meet your requirements. Find something that meets you requirements then.
grep is your friend.
I've been using Wordpress for years, and I am very happy with it. Out of the box it does what I want. If it doesn't I either extend myself or seek a plugin that someone has already wrote.
I'm not expecting Vanilla to take my calls on how to fix my self hosted forum. If you thought that, I must have mistyped someplace.
You have to take the good with the bad when it comes to OS. You are dismissing a large userbase by thinking that anyone who doesn't contribute has no value. Not to mention developing an club like behavior that doesn't welcome new users or ideas.
Thanks for discrediting the last 15 years of my life and my entire professional career.
Again, clear that the Vanilla community isn't the most inviting, which appears to be one of the major problems.
@shinyidol
In general, the Vanilla community on this forum (comprising volunteers, it should be noted, giving up their own time) is very helpful, often going to great lengths to ensure a question is resolved.
In addition, developers have been very generous with their time and skills, providing plugins which extend the OS Vanilla to meet many of the hosted features.
If your experience has been less than shiny happy, at least consider that it may not all be the fault of the community.
Thanks @whu606. Being new I'm sure I'll ask a lot of stupid questions as I don't have knowledge of the inner workings, directions, and opinions of the community at large.
As I said above, Vanilla looks to be a great option with some excellent features and I would love to use it in future deployments.
I am confused about your point. I thought you said are a developer, if you are you may actually like the approach. In vanilla hooks are implicit, you don't register them individually. The class inherits the pluggable capacity.
When Reactions and Badges wasn't released as some expected, there was a lot of hoopla, but since then there have been a lot of community solutions that are pretty good too.
I too have bugged for better official documentation, it is on it way I'm assured, but we have to be patient. The core team have a lot of priorities.
If they add value they are by definition contributing in my book. It is about attitude rather than if they are programmers or not. I'm not dismissing those, who contribute in other ways.
grep is your friend.
@shinyidol
If you avoid asking 'How do I get badges/reactions', and work out how to get rid of the 'Bonk' message (answered some hundreds of times on the forum) to get to the actual error, you will probably be fine.
The Vanilla team have a proprietary version of Vanilla, which they host, and run on the business model which makes most sense to them.
This community supports those who, for whatever reason, want to self-host the OS Vanilla.
If you use the OS version, and get stuck, there will almost always be someone who will help you get over it.
If you aren't happy using plugins created by the OS community, then the OS version is probably not for you.
Anyone hear the joke.
there is another joke I can't remember exactly:
His beef is "it is not easy for his clients to use (the clients who pay him) and wants the community and developers to make this free software something different" so he can recommend it to his clients and make money.
Seems to me that is what the guy who has clients is supposed to provide. added value for recommending certain OS software.
At the same time - anyone can do a writeup or add to wiki or make pull requests to make things as they think it should be done.
http://vanillaforums.org/discussion/24895/todo-list-for-when-2-1-goes-rc-and-final
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
Not quite true. If you don't release something as thousands who use their own modified OS software don't, the license doesn't apply. In the case of these license, it concern released code and providing the source. it does not apply to unreleased code, and few OS licenses do.
So in short the SaaS doesn't need to be licensed different. Just like you aren't forced to release the custom addons you use on your site.
grep is your friend.
@shinyidol
Welcome to the community!
While this community is small, you will find a wealth of developers, plugins, and themes. They will help you get started in the right direction with a little prodding.
As far as the addon repository goes, only addons that are written by the dev team are approved. So... disregard that tag for the moment. While it is admirable to only want to run 'approved code', it is nearly meaningless in this repo. I highly suggest you set up a development forum, load up some content (or import an existing forum), and start configuring it to meet your needs. We are here to help if you have any questions or run into any issues.
If you do run into an issue with a specific plugin, ask a question under the plugin and you have a direct line to the developer of the plugin. While no one is required to help, you will often find a helping hand. Do yourself a favor and search the forums for a solution first.
The most sought after features on the OS version, in my opinion, are: Reactions/Badges, Advanced Search, and the new editor. Each of these sought after features has the community analogous plugin. Search and ye shall find.
Search first
Check out the Documentation! We are always looking for new content and pull requests.
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