@peregrine said:
I can tell you first hand, that expecting people to donate for plugins that they find valuable is a losing proposition (14,000 downloads of my plugins and 1000 downloads in the past month).
Conversion rates on donations are terrible. While every instance will be different, an average ratio of impressions to donations for a simple donate button will be around 0.02%. That is 2 hundredths of a percent! Assuming you have 14,000 impressions, you can expect a whopping 2.8 people to donate. There are definitely ways to increase your conversion rate.
What does that say about human beings ? That we are selfish users who don't want to pay for anything ? Sad indeed.
I don't think people understand the implications. It is understandable why people try hard to protect their content/work from being ripped off just because people don't want to pay $5 dollars.
A theme can take over 100 hours of work from the creation to the testing and beyond.
I realize the same can go for any other development . How hard is it to come up with $5 dollars ?
@Lincoln said:
That they often correlate cost with value.
Do you mean they will pay based on how much they need it ? if so I agree and it makes sense. So long as they are willing to pay something for what they value.
or That they don't value it enough to want to pay something ? In that case they should not be asking to hire a dev , they should be asking how to become one ....or simply state they do not have any money and need someone to donate their time to them..
by the way the quotes thingy is not working only the name gets quoted
@Lincoln said:
That they often correlate cost with value.
+1, I wanted to write the same.
@vrijvlinder said:
Do you mean they will pay based on how much they need it?
Not exactly, they will pay depending on how much they think something is worth, no matter how much they really need it. It sounds paradoxical, doesn't it? One of the issues is that software is not tangible and it's often perceived as "non existing", thus of no value. A lot of people prefer to waste $30 on a beer in a top class bar, rather than investing $5 in some software that would greatly help them, because "they can always copy the software without paying". On the other hand, you cannot copy a beer, a car, or the latest iPhone, thus, if you want it, you must buy it. Or steal it, but then you risk trouble with the law.
In my opinion, there is also the issue that a forum software doesn't automatically mean "business". Products dealing with accounting, ecommerce, ERP, CRM, customer service and so on are clearly business software, which can contribute to run one's company and, therefore, increase the revenue and decrease the amount of work. They are perceived as "tools of the trade" of critical importance, thus people are less likely to go cheap on them. A forum can be an important tool, but it's not necessarily one. For example, there are thousands of communities out there, about anything you can think about, and many are owned by young teenagers and hobbyists of sort, who don't really think or see any economical value in them. These communities are not "serious business", just a pastime, and they are treated as such.
I think that most of the Users who could afford current market rates for developers go for the hosted solution, as it saves them a lot of time, headaches and also money. To make a comparison, one year of the Advanced plan for hosted Vanilla costs approximately 50% of one week of work, at local market rates. I think that, in such case, the choice is quite obvious.
Something that costs $1 is infinitely more valuable than something that's free. People usually do not donate to free software because they do not see it as having value. The exception to this rule is other developers who understand the time and skill involved.
And yes, the Advanced plan is a bloody steal. I run 2 medium forums and pay the equivalent of 2 Advanced plans just in high-quality hosting.
I think that's not what the opening discussion was about but if you are now speaking also about what is coming back from Vanilla users, I'd like to tell you my point of view.
You can call me naive, but I'm not convinced that people don't value what especially you guys are doing here. In fact I'm convinced that there would be more cash flow, if there was a simple and - even more important - immediate way to donate.
I often download plugins as a reference or kind of tutorial and I would happily donate but I'm just too lazy. I know that some plugins have a donate button somewhere or there might be some instructions in the readmes, but I only know because I've read about it here in the forum, not because I have seen it somewhere. Who reads the readmes anyway?
Some users here give such a skillful and always proffessional input that I'm deeply impressed and if there would be a simple and immediate way to transform my amazement into money, some, if not most of you in this discussion + 2 or 3 other users, would have already received money from me. Probably not more than one or two Happy Meals worth, but if we are talking about paying money for something you say you give away for free, that's not bad. And I cannot image that I am the only one here who's simply unreflecting but would donate if someone gives him a hint and an opportunity at the right time.
I have never paid a penny to anybody with paypal and the like by entering someone elses account information manually and I never want to have to do that. Sorry, I'm lazy and pampered and only want t o press buttons. So show me a [Donate a Dollar] button and I would gladly hit it at least once a week like Pawlows dog.
@Lincoln: if you extend your reactions plugin with a $ = donate reaction you'd give us the opportunity to show our thankfulness with money and if the plugin directory would have such a donate button, too, users wouldn't have to read readmes in order to donate. That would help the developers and therefore the Vanilla community here, I think.
(btw: I've recently learned about flattr.com and I've fallen in love with that idea immediately, but I think it has to few users. If I would see their button here, I'd become a member at once)
So what you are saying is, people can be duped into thinking that something is valuable simply by giving it a price .
Does the value have to be in currency ? Does it not matter the value you get from it's use ?
If I put a dollar value on my themes, say $200 bucks per theme. People will be under the impression that it is a high quality theme, and the ones I am giving away are sub quality because they are free.
That makes no logical sense. But it is common enough with anything. People don't buy LOUIS VUITTON bags because they are nice looking , they are horrible bags, but they cost a lot of money and people want them only because of that. How stupid.
I have a friend who only buys these things and says she would not be caught dead with a knock off. However I think it is stupid to pay $5000 for a bag. If I like a bag and there is a carbon copy for $35 bucks , it seems logical to get that one.
In order to find the value for me about something , I measure how much I really need it. To me value is obtained by how much I need it. If the need is not there, then it is how much do I want it. Then compare priority of other things I want or need.
We all want to pay less for things. That is ok. However there are times when we just have to if we want things to get accomplished .
@R_J peregrine made a donate for your forum plugin. Forum Donate plugin.
But you do need a credit card or a paypal account to pay.
They don't take cash. This is a problem for people who do not have a way to use paypal. Most who want to donate do. Even from china...
Seems like the hardest thing about hiring or taking a job offered, is the estimating for the total cost. It looks like it is easier to do it for free than to come up with a a spreadsheet of costs and productivity.
Can it be possible that developers and designers do not know how much they are worth ?
I find an intersecting aspect between songwriters and software developers. The songwriter will write songs and give them to others to play them. Just glad someone wants to. Never thinking that the song could be a hit and make millions. Just glad someone was willing to play the song.
The developer writes software programs, gives the software to others to play with and use. Just glad someone is willing to test it , to use it, to expand it.
People don't do all this thinking how much money it will earn them in the initial stages of involvement . I would like to believe that the payoff is much larger and it is down the road some and you can't think of that as a motivator to write some code up.
Is there not some level of excitement from the creation of something that functions?
If that was not the case, then Accounting is a better choice for a career .
@vrijvlinder said:
I found this very old discussion from 2008 in which people are asking themselves how much they should charge for some work offered.
>
Can it be possible that developers and designers do not know how much they are worth ?
Common issue, especially amongst coders. If someone doesn't know his worth, then he should not be in business. I never met a plumber who didn't know how much to charge. In many developers communities, when someone comes out with "how much should I ask?", the reply is usually "something".
People don't do all this thinking how much money it will earn them in the initial stages of involvement . I would like to believe that the payoff is much larger and it is down the road some and you can't think of that as a motivator to write some code up.
That is a motivator, when one does it as a business. If one does it as a hobby, then it doesn't matter if he gets paid or not, therefore all the talk about rates and worth falls apart. One can't run a business thinking that it doesn't matter if it's profitable or not.
Is there not some level of excitement from the creation of something that functions?
There may be, but it doesn't last forever. I felt a lot of excitement when I started developing working software, in 1997, but then it became a job like any other quite quickly. It's a job I can do well, and I like to put effort and care in it, but it's still just a job. To be clearer, if such activity weren't paying anything, I would drop it immediately and, probably, save myself a lot of stress.
If that was not the case, then Accounting is a better choice for a career .
Ironically, accounting is a requirement for whoever runs a business. Any business. You have to be a developer and an accountant, a baker and an accountant, a plumber and an accountant and so on, if you want to be able to read and understand your own business' books.
Now I should probably stop hijacking the discussion...
Peregrine sez:
I love the tautologies of higher cost implies better value and professionalism. I also love rationalizations - slower coders are more methodical and more careful. - faster coders are less methodical and less careful - faster coders are better - more documentation makes the coding better - less documentation make the coding worse - monolithic is bad - neolithic is good.
Vaniila community is no different then any other community - it is full of commensal organisms, fleet-footed antelopes, lemmings, symbiotic relationships, detritovores, saprophytes, coprophages(one or two), and parasites, and multi-celled animals with a primitive neural system and brain. Some work together, some work independently, some heave opprobrium, some give and take, and some take but never give (no matter what the circumstance, situation, or rationalization).
@r_j
Based on some of the questions asked on this forum (not by you), I can understand why you say clicking on a donate button in a settings page of a plugin is beyond the skillset or ability of some.
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
And pretty much anyone who does not have the degree, certification, or life experience to qualify for the standard wage. If you look for a job in this field, the requirements are very clear. You must know your stuff.
Someone who spent time in University to get these requirements fulfilled can account for their knowledge with a piece of paper. That qualifies you for a higher pay grade. It is supposed to mean the University guarantees their acquisition of knowledge.
In theory anyway...
Someone who learned on their own and mastered it without going to get a degree, will have a harder time proving that they qualify for a higher pay. Even if they are better than the Graduate.
There is a gray area where people are in between these two and those are the people who come to these self help forums. I hardly think that someone with a large company and money to spare will look here for devs. They look for professionals and would likely pay for the hosted solution instead of bothering with DIY.
So understanding the kind of folks who will come to an open source community forum, where most users develop their own plugins and themes etc. and share them for free and help out those learning to use the software, are generally not a big company with lots of money.
And in turn, not all of the devs have the degree but are just as good or better and do deserve to get "Something"
@r_j Based on some of the questions asked on this forum (not by you), I can understand why you say clicking on a donate button in a settings page of a plugin is beyond the skillset or ability of some.
Yes well remember some of your buttons were kaput ....and if you are not in the USA it can be terribly difficult to use your American credit card , You know ... I am willing to bet
that is the only problem. And many users here not from the USA so that may be an issue.
Gone are the days where people only did work they enjoyed ? Was that ever true or is it a pipe dream ?
If something is not enjoyable to do, I simply don't do it no matter how much it pays... I have learned to do many things so it never gets boring .
I do know that when you need to, you do what you must do. But if you have a choice, why pick something you loathe ? Something you can't wait to stop doing because it is tedious like a factory assembly line ...
edited - back to semantics and philosphical question - web designer - can they develop and can they design a web, or would a spider do a better job for free. Can a spider weave a silk purse out of a sow's ear?
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
People have pm me in the past asking where to donate to you and how. So it is not so strange that some are inept at the whole donate button thing. It would be easier if they could just mail the yuan ....
Comments
this one ?
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
where is the col crying out loud. lol.
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
yes I suppose that was not sad enough...this one is better but also could serve as laughing until you cry lol
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
Conversion rates on donations are terrible. While every instance will be different, an average ratio of impressions to donations for a simple donate button will be around 0.02%. That is 2 hundredths of a percent! Assuming you have 14,000 impressions, you can expect a whopping 2.8 people to donate. There are definitely ways to increase your conversion rate.
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Click on insightful, awesome, and funny reactions to thank community volunteers for their valuable posts.
What does that say about human beings ? That we are selfish users who don't want to pay for anything ? Sad indeed.
I don't think people understand the implications. It is understandable why people try hard to protect their content/work from being ripped off just because people don't want to pay $5 dollars.
A theme can take over 100 hours of work from the creation to the testing and beyond.
I realize the same can go for any other development . How hard is it to come up with $5 dollars ?
4COL
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
That they often correlate cost with value.
Do you mean they will pay based on how much they need it ? if so I agree and it makes sense. So long as they are willing to pay something for what they value.
or That they don't value it enough to want to pay something ? In that case they should not be asking to hire a dev , they should be asking how to become one ....or simply state they do not have any money and need someone to donate their time to them..
by the way the quotes thingy is not working
only the name gets quoted
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
+1, I wanted to write the same.
Not exactly, they will pay depending on how much they think something is worth, no matter how much they really need it. It sounds paradoxical, doesn't it? One of the issues is that software is not tangible and it's often perceived as "non existing", thus of no value. A lot of people prefer to waste $30 on a beer in a top class bar, rather than investing $5 in some software that would greatly help them, because "they can always copy the software without paying". On the other hand, you cannot copy a beer, a car, or the latest iPhone, thus, if you want it, you must buy it. Or steal it, but then you risk trouble with the law.
In my opinion, there is also the issue that a forum software doesn't automatically mean "business". Products dealing with accounting, ecommerce, ERP, CRM, customer service and so on are clearly business software, which can contribute to run one's company and, therefore, increase the revenue and decrease the amount of work. They are perceived as "tools of the trade" of critical importance, thus people are less likely to go cheap on them. A forum can be an important tool, but it's not necessarily one. For example, there are thousands of communities out there, about anything you can think about, and many are owned by young teenagers and hobbyists of sort, who don't really think or see any economical value in them. These communities are not "serious business", just a pastime, and they are treated as such.
I think that most of the Users who could afford current market rates for developers go for the hosted solution, as it saves them a lot of time, headaches and also money. To make a comparison, one year of the Advanced plan for hosted Vanilla costs approximately 50% of one week of work, at local market rates. I think that, in such case, the choice is quite obvious.
My shop | About Me
Something that costs $1 is infinitely more valuable than something that's free. People usually do not donate to free software because they do not see it as having value. The exception to this rule is other developers who understand the time and skill involved.
And yes, the Advanced plan is a bloody steal. I run 2 medium forums and pay the equivalent of 2 Advanced plans just in high-quality hosting.
I think that's not what the opening discussion was about but if you are now speaking also about what is coming back from Vanilla users, I'd like to tell you my point of view.
You can call me naive, but I'm not convinced that people don't value what especially you guys are doing here. In fact I'm convinced that there would be more cash flow, if there was a simple and - even more important - immediate way to donate.
I often download plugins as a reference or kind of tutorial and I would happily donate but I'm just too lazy. I know that some plugins have a donate button somewhere or there might be some instructions in the readmes, but I only know because I've read about it here in the forum, not because I have seen it somewhere. Who reads the readmes anyway?
Some users here give such a skillful and always proffessional input that I'm deeply impressed and if there would be a simple and immediate way to transform my amazement into money, some, if not most of you in this discussion + 2 or 3 other users, would have already received money from me. Probably not more than one or two Happy Meals worth, but if we are talking about paying money for something you say you give away for free, that's not bad. And I cannot image that I am the only one here who's simply unreflecting but would donate if someone gives him a hint and an opportunity at the right time.
I have never paid a penny to anybody with paypal and the like by entering someone elses account information manually and I never want to have to do that. Sorry, I'm lazy and pampered and only want t o press buttons. So show me a [Donate a Dollar] button and I would gladly hit it at least once a week like Pawlows dog.
@Lincoln: if you extend your reactions plugin with a $ = donate reaction you'd give us the opportunity to show our thankfulness with money and if the plugin directory would have such a donate button, too, users wouldn't have to read readmes in order to donate. That would help the developers and therefore the Vanilla community here, I think.
(btw: I've recently learned about flattr.com and I've fallen in love with that idea immediately, but I think it has to few users. If I would see their button here, I'd become a member at once)
Thanks @Lincoln and @businessdad for clearing that up, Humans are weird ...
So what you are saying is, people can be duped into thinking that something is valuable simply by giving it a price .
Does the value have to be in currency ? Does it not matter the value you get from it's use ?
If I put a dollar value on my themes, say $200 bucks per theme. People will be under the impression that it is a high quality theme, and the ones I am giving away are sub quality because they are free.
That makes no logical sense. But it is common enough with anything. People don't buy LOUIS VUITTON bags because they are nice looking , they are horrible bags, but they cost a lot of money and people want them only because of that. How stupid.
I have a friend who only buys these things and says she would not be caught dead with a knock off. However I think it is stupid to pay $5000 for a bag. If I like a bag and there is a carbon copy for $35 bucks , it seems logical to get that one.
In order to find the value for me about something , I measure how much I really need it. To me value is obtained by how much I need it. If the need is not there, then it is how much do I want it. Then compare priority of other things I want or need.
We all want to pay less for things. That is ok. However there are times when we just have to if we want things to get accomplished .
@R_J peregrine made a donate for your forum plugin. Forum Donate plugin.
But you do need a credit card or a paypal account to pay.
They don't take cash. This is a problem for people who do not have a way to use paypal. Most who want to donate do. Even from china...
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
I found this very old discussion from 2008 in which people are asking themselves how much they should charge for some work offered.
http://vanillaforums.org/discussion/8594/hire-price
Seems like the hardest thing about hiring or taking a job offered, is the estimating for the total cost. It looks like it is easier to do it for free than to come up with a a spreadsheet of costs and productivity.
Can it be possible that developers and designers do not know how much they are worth ?
I find an intersecting aspect between songwriters and software developers. The songwriter will write songs and give them to others to play them. Just glad someone wants to. Never thinking that the song could be a hit and make millions. Just glad someone was willing to play the song.
The developer writes software programs, gives the software to others to play with and use. Just glad someone is willing to test it , to use it, to expand it.
People don't do all this thinking how much money it will earn them in the initial stages of involvement . I would like to believe that the payoff is much larger and it is down the road some and you can't think of that as a motivator to write some code up.
Is there not some level of excitement from the creation of something that functions?
If that was not the case, then Accounting is a better choice for a career .
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
>
Common issue, especially amongst coders. If someone doesn't know his worth, then he should not be in business. I never met a plumber who didn't know how much to charge. In many developers communities, when someone comes out with "how much should I ask?", the reply is usually "something".
That is a motivator, when one does it as a business. If one does it as a hobby, then it doesn't matter if he gets paid or not, therefore all the talk about rates and worth falls apart. One can't run a business thinking that it doesn't matter if it's profitable or not.
There may be, but it doesn't last forever. I felt a lot of excitement when I started developing working software, in 1997, but then it became a job like any other quite quickly. It's a job I can do well, and I like to put effort and care in it, but it's still just a job. To be clearer, if such activity weren't paying anything, I would drop it immediately and, probably, save myself a lot of stress.
Ironically, accounting is a requirement for whoever runs a business. Any business. You have to be a developer and an accountant, a baker and an accountant, a plumber and an accountant and so on, if you want to be able to read and understand your own business' books.
Now I should probably stop hijacking the discussion...
My shop | About Me
Peregrine sez:
I love the tautologies of higher cost implies better value and professionalism. I also love rationalizations - slower coders are more methodical and more careful. - faster coders are less methodical and less careful - faster coders are better - more documentation makes the coding better - less documentation make the coding worse - monolithic is bad - neolithic is good.
Vaniila community is no different then any other community - it is full of commensal organisms, fleet-footed antelopes, lemmings, symbiotic relationships, detritovores, saprophytes, coprophages(one or two), and parasites, and multi-celled animals with a primitive neural system and brain. Some work together, some work independently, some heave opprobrium, some give and take, and some take but never give (no matter what the circumstance, situation, or rationalization).
@r_j
Based on some of the questions asked on this forum (not by you), I can understand why you say clicking on a donate button in a settings page of a plugin is beyond the skillset or ability of some.
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
Fair enough...
And pretty much anyone who does not have the degree, certification, or life experience to qualify for the standard wage. If you look for a job in this field, the requirements are very clear. You must know your stuff.
Someone who spent time in University to get these requirements fulfilled can account for their knowledge with a piece of paper. That qualifies you for a higher pay grade. It is supposed to mean the University guarantees their acquisition of knowledge.
In theory anyway...
Someone who learned on their own and mastered it without going to get a degree, will have a harder time proving that they qualify for a higher pay. Even if they are better than the Graduate.
There is a gray area where people are in between these two and those are the people who come to these self help forums. I hardly think that someone with a large company and money to spare will look here for devs. They look for professionals and would likely pay for the hosted solution instead of bothering with DIY.
So understanding the kind of folks who will come to an open source community forum, where most users develop their own plugins and themes etc. and share them for free and help out those learning to use the software, are generally not a big company with lots of money.
And in turn, not all of the devs have the degree but are just as good or better and do deserve to get "Something"
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
@r_j Based on some of the questions asked on this forum (not by you), I can understand why you say clicking on a donate button in a settings page of a plugin is beyond the skillset or ability of some.
Yes well remember some of your buttons were kaput ....and if you are not in the USA it can be terribly difficult to use your American credit card , You know ... I am willing to bet
that is the only problem. And many users here not from the USA so that may be an issue.
There should be an easier way than paypal....
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
Gone are the days where people only did work they enjoyed ? Was that ever true or is it a pipe dream ?
If something is not enjoyable to do, I simply don't do it no matter how much it pays... I have learned to do many things so it never gets boring .
I do know that when you need to, you do what you must do. But if you have a choice, why pick something you loathe ? Something you can't wait to stop doing because it is tedious like a factory assembly line ...
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
edited - back to semantics and philosphical question - web designer - can they develop and can they design a web, or would a spider do a better job for free. Can a spider weave a silk purse out of a sow's ear?
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
People have pm me in the past asking where to donate to you and how. So it is not so strange that some are inept at the whole donate button thing. It would be easier if they could just mail the yuan ....
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
well you can spin tough silk from goat's milk so anything is possible I suppose ...
Yes it already does and that is why they want to clone it and make synthetic silk.
If the spider is an anthropomorphism , then it would depend on the spider
Do I think the spider should be rewarded ? Yes I do of course...
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