I'd want Jonny Ive if I was paying $2800 for four days' work on a theme. $1800 is more like a realistic target. Negotiate hard with freelance programmers and designers. They're rarely worth as much as they think they are. Completely ignore their ratecard. It's not like going to buy groceries.
I've only ever met one guy - an After Effects operator - that I consider to be so outstandingly talented and thorough I pay a premium to secure his work at short notice. Anything else, I drive a hard bargain.
Not trying to offend anyone on the forum People need to hear the commercial perspective too.
@50sQuiff said:
Negotiate hard with freelance programmers and designers. They're rarely worth as much as they think they are.
I agree with you about over valued perceptions in some cases. But there are some some people (I am not pointing at you), I quoted $20-30 total for 8 hours work just because I thought the idea was interesting, but they still dogged and badgered me because it was too high, so I threw in the towel. At some point you've got to realize when you got a great deal quit the bargaining process or you will lose a budget developer (who is trully giving you a bargain) forever.
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
@peregrine, there's certainly an ugly world of barrel-scraping coding, design and copywriting out there. You definitely get what you pay for there. Bid them good day and leave it at that.
Though as we've discussed before, I think there is a distinction between sponsoring an open source release and private contract work. The sponsorship model is a kind of mutualism and sponsored work should really only take place where there's a mutual interest in the outcome. It also helps to foster a healthy ecosystem. If everyone here sponsors $150 open-source plugins for example, we all get $1000s worth back. That's the beauty of open source and where it creates value.
For your part, I don't think it's bad to offer $30 to do something interesting either. If you can get a bit of compensation for the opportunity to learn new skills and have them tested in production, then that has a value in itself for someone looking to build a career or make contacts.
I don't think it's bad to offer $30 to do something interesting either.
No, but it is bad when the price is beyond right and they still say it is too much..... $1 dollar is too much to some people.
I think the best thing anyone coming in here to hire can do is, just learn the dam stuff !! Forget about paying people to do what you need. Do it yourself problem solved. It is not Rocket Science a monkey can do it...(they have gone into outer space) so anyone can learn css.
Empower yourself with knowledge so you can later contribute back to the community.
I am not a theme designer. For me what I'd pay for in a designer is finesse. It is not the technical css, I can do that myself (although they will do it more systematically), it is creating something the fits the brand, the layout and style, even the white space.
Personalty Id want to combine that with UX somewhat. So somebody who knows who do user journey, and has an idea of how, look at the process, and interaction, and try and improve the experience.
These might not be one and the same person, but you'd want them to work on it together.
@50sQuiff said:
Negotiate hard with freelance programmers and designers. They're rarely worth as much as they think they are. Completely ignore their ratecard. It's not like going to buy groceries.
I disagree, it's a harsh statement and a sweeping generalisation. It's not just up to the customer to decide what a consultant is worth. It's more correct to say that you would value the project at $1800, and that would be your budget. If the consultant agrees, then you have a deal. If he doesn't, it doesn't mean that "he thinks he is worth too much". If that were the case, one could also say that "you expect too much for your budget". Equally harsh, equally incorrect. Business is a matter of finding an agreement. I met plenty of IT professionals with a non negotiable rate (significantly higher than the one you indicated), and they are hardly starving, nor they are "thieves".
So somebody who knows who do user journey, and has an idea of how, look at the process, and interaction, and try and improve the experience.
Very good point, and this is what should be considered a heavy part. Especially if you start a fresh board with no or not much users i can not stop to say how fundamental it is to have good design and easy to adopt UI. All the promotion work, time and money you invest can be worthless if visitors strife away because the don't like the design.
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The truth is programmers often suck at UX. We can be very analytical but have the problem of thinking everybody thinks like us, and becuase we already know how it works, we don't necessarily have the intuition to know what would be best, we just think of the interface that makes sense to us.
@businessdad, that's what makes a market. You're free to charge as you wish and get what people pay for. There's nothing wrong with that at all and I never suggested otherwise. I certainly never called anyone a thief!
The amount naivete on the buy-side is often staggering. People with no knowledge, experience or skills that can't negotiate their way out of a paper bag. They will overpay for everything. Corporate inertia also plays a role. People tend to make poor judgements with money they didn't earn.
That doesn't make you worth what they're paying. Price does not equal value.
Comments
Yes, next thing you know you will be booted back here with the wolves and sheep .... we do miss you by the way
But Yes Best keep it in the down low ,Just Call it
But
This is not "Vanilla" Actually it's a conglomeration of Vanillists .
This is "Vanillica" Land of the best known OS Forum software !!
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
vanillaforums.org = Vanilica
vanillaforums.com = Vanilla
we knew, we were just playing.
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
I'd want Jonny Ive if I was paying $2800 for four days' work on a theme. $1800 is more like a realistic target. Negotiate hard with freelance programmers and designers. They're rarely worth as much as they think they are. Completely ignore their ratecard. It's not like going to buy groceries.
I've only ever met one guy - an After Effects operator - that I consider to be so outstandingly talented and thorough I pay a premium to secure his work at short notice. Anything else, I drive a hard bargain.
Not trying to offend anyone on the forum
People need to hear the commercial perspective too.
I agree with you about over valued perceptions in some cases. But there are some some people (I am not pointing at you), I quoted $20-30 total for 8 hours work just because I thought the idea was interesting, but they still dogged and badgered me because it was too high, so I threw in the towel. At some point you've got to realize when you got a great deal quit the bargaining process or you will lose a budget developer (who is trully giving you a bargain) forever.
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
@peregrine, there's certainly an ugly world of barrel-scraping coding, design and copywriting out there. You definitely get what you pay for there. Bid them good day and leave it at that.
Though as we've discussed before, I think there is a distinction between sponsoring an open source release and private contract work. The sponsorship model is a kind of mutualism and sponsored work should really only take place where there's a mutual interest in the outcome. It also helps to foster a healthy ecosystem. If everyone here sponsors $150 open-source plugins for example, we all get $1000s worth back. That's the beauty of open source and where it creates value.
For your part, I don't think it's bad to offer $30 to do something interesting either. If you can get a bit of compensation for the opportunity to learn new skills and have them tested in production, then that has a value in itself for someone looking to build a career or make contacts.
No, but it is bad when the price is beyond right and they still say it is too much..... $1 dollar is too much to some people.
I think the best thing anyone coming in here to hire can do is, just learn the dam stuff !! Forget about paying people to do what you need. Do it yourself problem solved. It is not Rocket Science a monkey can do it...(they have gone into outer space) so anyone can learn css.
Empower yourself with knowledge so you can later contribute back to the community.
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
@50sQuiff, I agree. It's a great way to get motivation to learn new things when it comes to Vanilla and add to the developer's experience.
Add Pages to Vanilla with the Basic Pages app
vrijvlinder - you understood my point
I may not provide the completed solution you might desire, but I do try to provide honest suggestions to help you solve your issue.
@50sQuiff what do you mean by ?
Who is the barrel and who is the scraper ? or the scrapes ?
That is funny , I imagine a monkey scraping a barrel of monkeys . I feel like that sometimes .. less and less though
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
It comes from the saying "scrape the bottom of the barrel," which means to choose something from the worst.
Add Pages to Vanilla with the Basic Pages app
Yes , Thanks .... which is why I said I feel less and less at the bottom of that barrel lmao !
❌ ✊ ♥. ¸. ••. ¸♥¸. ••. ¸♥ ✊ ❌
I am not a theme designer. For me what I'd pay for in a designer is finesse. It is not the technical css, I can do that myself (although they will do it more systematically), it is creating something the fits the brand, the layout and style, even the white space.
Personalty Id want to combine that with UX somewhat. So somebody who knows who do user journey, and has an idea of how, look at the process, and interaction, and try and improve the experience.
These might not be one and the same person, but you'd want them to work on it together.
grep is your friend.
I disagree, it's a harsh statement and a sweeping generalisation. It's not just up to the customer to decide what a consultant is worth. It's more correct to say that you would value the project at $1800, and that would be your budget. If the consultant agrees, then you have a deal. If he doesn't, it doesn't mean that "he thinks he is worth too much". If that were the case, one could also say that "you expect too much for your budget". Equally harsh, equally incorrect. Business is a matter of finding an agreement. I met plenty of IT professionals with a non negotiable rate (significantly higher than the one you indicated), and they are hardly starving, nor they are "thieves".
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Very good point, and this is what should be considered a heavy part. Especially if you start a fresh board with no or not much users i can not stop to say how fundamental it is to have good design and easy to adopt UI. All the promotion work, time and money you invest can be worthless if visitors strife away because the don't like the design.
@phreak are you a designer yourself?
grep is your friend.
The truth is programmers often suck at UX. We can be very analytical but have the problem of thinking everybody thinks like us, and becuase we already know how it works, we don't necessarily have the intuition to know what would be best, we just think of the interface that makes sense to us.
grep is your friend.
@businessdad, that's what makes a market. You're free to charge as you wish and get what people pay for. There's nothing wrong with that at all and I never suggested otherwise. I certainly never called anyone a thief!
The amount naivete on the buy-side is often staggering. People with no knowledge, experience or skills that can't negotiate their way out of a paper bag. They will overpay for everything. Corporate inertia also plays a role. People tend to make poor judgements with money they didn't earn.
That doesn't make you worth what they're paying. Price does not equal value.
@x00: Yep! See a recent mobile theme i made for one of my communities.
btw4Today: Snowden data reveals encryptions is de factor non existent. killTheNSA
not sure what you are saying.
How does the menu work in that theme? I'm having trouble understanding what is on the screen at one time.
grep is your friend.
Looks like the whole page slides right.