Apple to have something very big in their sleeve?

Kosmo

@mini: Macs make excellent servers, truely remarkable, they actually rival Linux servers, and network terminals? I really don't know what you mean by that, but all the same aspects safe the software, Macs can do as good if not better than Winnie machines, and because they have the added feature of *nix anvironment they do most parts of working that much easier, and adding them to a network is a snap, a snap I tells you. If MS made their own computers and laid back from game software and console hardware/software they might rival Apple easily, very easily I would think. The MS handicap comes from their jack of all trades attitude, you know, "jack of all trades, master of none" and that what Microsoft is doing right now it, they master absolutely nothing at all. I made a solid decision and didn't get me a car, instead, I spend all the money I'd be spending on something as absurd and actually useless as car. That is why I can afford to spend that much on my puter.

Evios

Just a comment on the who buys $500 computers. A ton of people do; most of the consumer market can't go out and build themselves a computer. So someone that has a computer that seems to be slowing down, looks at the Sunday ads and sees PC computers all over the place from $299 up and that's with a 15" LCD. Never do you see Apple computers in the ads - you just don't, and if by chance you do, no where near $299 or even $500 for one. I market Apple and PC computers all day long, I know the prices, I know how much Apple sells their computers for and I know retailers markups. Apple just doesn't have a budget computer that does everything people want. And Apples can do just about everything someone wants, but they don't come bundled with Microsoft Office packs and such like the PCs do.

lech

Kosmo, you do realize though, that if you did cut a couple of corners on that Dell WorkStation, and ordered the parts and monitors seperately, that you could have gotten the same thing for about $4000 less, right? This is the main point I'm trying to make which makes those $500 computers in most cases just as good as the $5000 ones. If you shop around and know exactly where to look, you could pick yourself up some of the top notch pc equipment for a fraction of the cost and build the same thing any OEM is offering for 8x the price. If you quickly take each part of that Dell, and do a lookup on the price for it as if you were to purchase it individually + shipping costs, you might end up slapping yourself for dropping 9K on it in the first place :D When I build systems, sure I want them to be the best on the market, I'm just not going to go out of my way and go through some OEM who wants to sell me the exact same thing at their prices. This is where the market shifts greatly, you're paying all that extra money for some bench monkey to slap the parts together for you which would take you under an hour to do yourself. Frankly, I don't mind that extra work if it's saving me a ton of money on the system at the end. This is where apple could step in and do the same is simply all I was saying, just cause you "build" a computer by ordering it from Apple or Dell doesn't exactly mean you "built" that computer :) you simply picked out the pieces for it. I'm speaking in terms of actually reading the manuals, setting the jumpers, slapping the cables together and mounting all the hardware :D

Krak

I wish you could buy components and build your own laptops... That would be really nice. Laptop kits.

Minisweeper

/me nods at krak

lech

Krak, I've been told you can, but it's hard to find and probably not worth the prices yet.

Kosmo

There are alot of DIY Laptops, but they don't get that much attenttion since they are heavy and usually drain battery in 3 hours. You can't build your own vaio computer because they are very well designed and everything is taken in consideration and usually the parts are custom made for the computer. But Lech I hope you fully understand that it is not fair to compare Macs to PCs that you build your self, IF you were able to build your own Apple then it would be totally fair to compare the prices. But now we should compare them only to other computer retailers PCs like HP, Dell and even Sony. Because all those computers are also designed and everything put inside the PC has been taken in consideration, and my personal opinion is that Sony Vaio series coumputers are dream machines if it weren't for the OS. In the price there is more than just the extra that comes from "some bench monkey slapping everything on" the extra comes from the R&D they make.

lech

Well, since there is no stand-alone hardware for Apple to offer, then no, I suppose I can't compare it to PC hardware, yet. However, A TON of R&D has been put into pc hardware, and as a result it's only become cheaper, no doubt another reason apple switched to intel. Most of Apple's R&D goes into marketing and design, where you get a pretty little box holding all your hardware, the only color options are white, or white with chrome/brushed metal... which to me seems a bit bland. Without knowing first-hand, I would have to guess that when apple begins shipping it's intel line of macs, the generic chips on the motherboard (give or take the specially customized ones) won't be too different from any other setups beyond the CPU itself. I'll also bet that as a result, those macs will run under the same memory and other system busses like most other systems today. If by then there's not much difference between the Windows/Linux hardware, I don't see why Apple shouldn't start selling it's hardware as stand-alone DIY kits at a discount. That way, everyone could build one for shits and giggles and REALLy make a switch. From the press I've been reading there's only a handful of special chips ones hardware should have in order to currently run OSX under an x86 architecture, and if that's the case, comparing your avg PC to a MAC won't be too difficult then. So it's only logical that Apple in the foreseeable future breaks out of their little white shelled box and goes into whole-sale hardware vending. I'd rather have my own custom case branded with an Apple logo than a Windows flag any day. Because the last thing I need is to be sold some $2000 designer computer case that's not much different from a standard $200 off the shelf one when you look inside it.

Minisweeper

I do agree 99% with lech (i never like to commit to anything), but while it'd also be nice to be able to build your own macs at cut price etc, i have to say there would also be a certain temptation to be able to package pc's in mac's expensive R&D cases aswell for those people with the spare cash so perhaps that wouldnt be such a bad idea in itself.

Krak

You can run OSX on a PC. A buddy of mine has it, requires a hack here and there, but it works.

I hate premade PCs from vendors. They usually use shitty freaking hardware, over charge you for it, and it comes preloaded with loads of bullshit.

Once more, if you buy a Dell (or others), the software that comes preloaded on contains spyware, adware, and all that garbage, and tech support wont help you remove it. It violates their agreement. Or something like that, I heard anyways.

Not to mention the damned things are branded, embedded with the some of the companies bullshit.

I would never recommend a prebuilt computer. Unless the user is a complete idiot and only uses it to check email and type resumes.

Minisweeper

Dell are one of the better pre-built companies and have built themselves a reasonable reputation as far as quality goes (though i hear numerous bad reports about their service) There are others like mesh who will build you a nice pc out of decent enough componants and when they say theyre gonna install the OS, thats what they do. What you really need to avoid is the high street stores who stack em high and sell them cheap with the hope that you subscribe to this that and the other and go back to them when the shitty cheap hardware they build with fails.

Krak

"What you really need to"... do is build your own, haha. Its really not that hard, and Im sure there are walkthroughs on how to do it. And most people nowadays probably know someone capable of doing it if they dont want to themselves.

Minisweeper

Oh dont get me wrong, I'm a pc builder through; i was just saying that if you were to go OEM, they were the cunts to avoid.

Kosmo

But the problem is that when Apple switches to Inter platform (is it already sure that they will be using x86 architecture?) it will become even more important for Apple to control their hardware. The main reason why PC hardware is so cheap is that there are literally hundreds of different companies making the hardware, competition is harsh and they try to make a cut by catering different customers needs, like gamers and professional designers and so on. It wouldn't matter if Apple would start to sell their hardware in bulk, it would still be pretty expensive since Apple has the only parts that go with Apple, OR we will go back to the stoneage like with PC shoddy driver support at best, there is a good reason why Apple likes things like they are, they can control everything, thusly making sure that everything works like a clock. If you want cheaper hardware, you should introduce more hardware vendors than just one, and that brings in trouble, you'd have to ensure the perfect support of hundreds of different parts and take the risk that there isn't always going to be the perfect machine like there is now. I seriously oppose the idea, if you want to build your own machine with cheap parts and put Linux in it, why bother buying a Mac? Isn't that why PCs are there? When we introduce several hardware vendors and only OS support from the parent company Apple with hardware chip manufacturers bringing driver support I really start to see PC here people.

lech

Kosmo, you're missing my point entirely I think. If Apple simply licensed it's hardware like nVidia licenses its gpu's only to a certain handful of vendors, things would be sweet. Apple already contracts many of your common PC variety manufacturers to build their boards and other various chips, so allowing those manufacturers to wholesale thier hardware would be icing on the cake. The point is that if they did that, if you had the choice between OSX and BSD/Linux, and the hardware was there to build up on your own, you would more than likely drop OSX rather than tinker with any other linux distro. Apple would just have to make their choices very carefully, and help make their market aware of who are the real vendors vs those who are not. It's not rocket science, there are plenty of hardware vendors who do things like this, it's just the matter of finding the right ones who they can trust.

Minisweeper

*nods with lech - while there are hundreds of hardware vendors for pc's, there are a couple whom you know will have the correct support/drivers/etc and who you can feel more confident about system stability and such when you use their parts. I *could* buy a pcchips mobo with a nobrand nic... but i know thats asking for trouble when i want my pc solid as a rock, so i choose the well supported asus mobo's and other recommended products. The same could go for apple, but if they kept their control on who vended their hardware they retain the good reputation they have, allbeit at a slightly higher (but considerably lower than current) end price.

lech

I stick with only a few different Mobo manufacturers who have been solid with me in the past and produce really reliable equipment. Even apple has had flakey hardware in the past which has warranted several complaints. But either way, Apple themselves is never responsible for directly manufacturing the hardware, it's always some 3rd party, they simply put it all together and slap a huge price on it all. And I'm certain that what they get is considerably much less than what the consumer purchases it for (obviously). They never pass down any kinds of savings down to the consumer. If they did, I think they would see everyone buying it up and then some.

Kosmo

Lech, I think that you have completely misunderstood how Apple works, they are far from "they simply put it all together and slap a huge price on it all." Apple not only does what you said, carefully chooses who they work with and trust, chooses the parts they want for their product, take it, test it, makes sure they work properly with every part in their system, makes sure the OS fully supports it and properly uses it's functionality, makes sure all the products they take from the hardware manufacturer are working correctly and then when everything works like well oiled machine they sell it and ship it. Prettymuch the same thing Dell/HP/IBM does, none of these manufacture all the parts of their computers, but they don't have the benefit of having their own OS and having close relationships with diffirent chip manufacturers. Look, all I'm saying is that having DIY Apples with different parts from several different manufacturers is not that good for the stability, I have built computers all my life, just like many here I have built all my own computers, computers for my family and friends, but I understand that the thing is just as good as is the sum of it's parts, if I just bought the best damn CPU, GPU, Memory, HDDs and soundcards and cut the corner on mobo the thing is just as good as the mobo is, or if you go for the high speed mark on all of your parts but go with 256megs of slow memory, your machine will be as good as shit. Never have I paid little for something that is good.

lech

Well, aside from a custom bios image and some proprietary ram, I hate to break it to you, but Dell/HP/Gateway is no different from some other systems. Sure they run with the best parts available, but in hindsight, 90% of those machines are just about anything you can pick off of a shelf. I'll give Dell bonus points for making some kick ass laptops and flatscreens, but in all seriousness, the hardware is not much different from your run of the mill DIY system when it gets down to the desktops. In some cases, it's either the same, or worse, especially if you were over-charged. I too have built PC's and compared them to friends who've purchased through various OEM's and servicing their machines when asked didn't reveal anything special about them. It's typically a rebranded Asus/Gigabyte/Tyan board with a couple of extra's. Many of which you can purchase directly from the manufacturer for a fraction of the cost you pay through Dell or anyone else. In many cases, any DIY setup can usually smoke the OEM competition if you're going for quality and stability, especially when you know what you're doing. Seriously, find me any OEM desktop computer out on the market today and list down the parts. I'm fairly certain you could build the exact same thing if not better for a fraction of the cost with either the same or better stability and have extra cash left over to load it full of games and software. Most of the cost of any system these days is in the video and display hardware. That's where your wallet gets raped and burned. Anyway, I am familiar how Apple functions and operates. I'm simply saying that if they're doing all that R&D, they should in turn be picking out trustworthy manufacturers and offering up their systems in pieces for the DIY folks like me. I presume the next Intel Mac is going come in an ATX or a commonly similar formfactor, so why not ship the templates to the presses and get the parts out there to those that want it. Asus was producing your iPods for a while, why not the motherboards and controller chips too? :D After all, if it's endoresed and certified with Apple, it's still a Mac then, isn't it?

Kosmo

Sure it's Mac, since that is it's name. But wouldn't it be just the same if Apple made Mac OS X for PCs? Why go all the trouble of finding trustworthy hardware manufacturers and still design your own hardware just so some other companies can sell it and cash in?