The official I hate PCs discussion

dan39

"I wonder how it would fare if apple had to create it to work on as many machines as windows. I think we'd really see the true measure of it then."

OS X is basically just (BSD) UNIX with a nice user interface and a bunch of apps and graphics frameworks. It's not like UNIX hasn't proven itself as an extremely secure OS over the past 30 years.

No one is saying that OS X is perfect, but if you're going to suggest that Windows is just as secure as (BSD) UNIX then I'm not sure I would agree.

giginger

I was talking generally with that statement in regards to the OS as a whole. I wasn't explicitly referring to the security of the system. My knowledge of UNIX security extends to this: It's better.

Stash

http://consumer.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI3NSwxLCxoY29uc3VtZXI=
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTI3MSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Both pretty enlightened and amusing. Not saying they're 100% accurate, as they're obviously nt, nor that I agree with everything that's said, but they're a fun read none the less.

I quite liked this Let's face it: Microsoft's Windows operating systems did not make $10,000,000,000.00 (yes, ten billion US Dollars) in 2006 because its products are inherently bad.

giginger

Well clearly it's the zombie factor which results in that sort of sales figure. You're so pig headed!

jimw

@Wanderer: That video [allowed] made my day [allowed]. Thank you.

dan39

I see your point, but IMHO I think the reason why Apple controls the hardware is so that the user doesn't have to make as many decisions. It's a more userfriedly purchasing experience. Also, that way they can make all of the things that the OS does best be standard features: bluetooth, USB, Firewire, DVD-burning, etc. You never end up buying a Mac that can't do something it was meant to be able to do.

I know that most people on this board won't be able to relate to this, but it all comes down to the Paradox of Choice. If you had 50 different types of gasoline to choose from every time you pulled up to the pump, it would be a very frustrating experience. But, only having 3 types of unleaded gas seems to satisfy just about everyone.

Before you disagree with me, watch the YouTube on the Paradox of Choice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM

I really think that Apple uses this a model for making the purchasing of Macs more satisfying. I know it's not the whole reason, but it's definitely part of the equation.

jimw

That Paradox explains why I am so confused. At least now I can read a book that will explain it to me.

And while viewing that video, I saw this one.

"Keep it simple", that's important.

giginger

You never end up buying a Mac that can't do something it was meant to be able to do.

Best damn sentence I've read in regard to Macs.

I'm not going to disagree with you on choice. However, when it comes to computers I do like the wide range of choice. I don't know, there's just something about being able to pick and choose components from a wide range. Maybe it's the geeky part of me that enjoys that, reading up on the new tech etc.
I've been toying with the idea of getting work to get me a MacBook Pro. I might be able to swing it. However, I'm not certain. Would be cool though. Then again, it's because it's a new toy as well :P

jimw: Nice vid.

jimw

Here's a flow chart concerning Windows Vista development. Someone sent me the link and I thought you would enjoy it, too.

y2kbg

haha "stop being a smart ass" LMAO

giginger

I love the lottery comment.

Stash

I see your point, but IMHO I think the reason why Apple controls the hardware is so that the user doesn't have to make as many decisions.

dan, I agree about the paradox of choice, as there probably is too much in the PC market (this includes Apple), but when you're as into hardware as I am, it is no longer a problem and Apple simply doesn't give me that choice. Also, and perhaps I'm being cynical here, but the main reasons I believe Apple locks their OS to specific hardware is three fold, in this order:

1. Trying to support the sheer volume of different hardware that is available for and already supported by Windows would be a very difficult task, not least the actual convincing of the manufacturers to support your OS when it has such a small market share - in other words, it's easier.
2. This way they can charge a premium for their hardware.
3. It makes it easier for customers to pick a Mac.

dan39

"but when you're as into hardware as I am, it is no longer a problem and Apple simply doesn't give me that choice.

@Stash, you must be getting forgetful. We've already been through this

The MacPro is specifically designed for people like you:

http://www.apple.com/macpro/expansion.html

From Apple.com:
"The new Mac Pro — More than 4 Million Possible Configurations: You’re the expert. With build-to-order options available for processors, graphic cards, memory, hard drives, optical drives, and other features and components, the über-configurable Mac Pro lets you build your personal dream machine."

And, if you're going to bring up "premium", we've also already shown that the Mac Pro is often cheaper than a comparable PC.

I do remember that you replied by saying that those pro line computers are overkill for you, and you could do things cheaper yourself. But, I'm not sure what you mean when you say things like "when you're as into hardware as I am" and then you say that the high-end computers are overkill.

So, what exactly is your ideal computer then? and what would it cost?

Stash

To be honest, the Mac PRO is more than I need in some areas and less in others, so it's not designed specifically for people like me, and that's precisely the point. I'm not saying that it's not a good machine or even unreasonably priced, but it's more than I want to pay as I upgrade incrementally. Also, while I appreciate the engineering of the case (it really is very good indeed) the styling doesn't do it for me - and the styling in particular with Apple is "Like it or lump it".

Mac Pro

Base config
+ Two 2.0 Xeons (cheapest you can get)
+ 2GB RAM (4x512MB)

£1394.91 <-- from the online UK shop</h4>+ OcUK GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB GDDR3 - £309.99
+ WD Raptor WD1500ADFD - £125.99
Subtotal £1830.89

Total inc VAT £2151.30

Custom built PC

Asus P5N-E SLI 650i - £68.83
E4300 - £92.72
Scythe Ninja Plus Rev.B Heatpipe CPU Cooler - £29.99
OcUK GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB GDDR3 - £309.99
GeIL 2GB (2x1GB) PC6400C4 - £109.99
Antec P180 Black SPCR - £59.56
Seasonic M12 600W Modular PSU - £93.98
WD Raptor WD1500ADFD - £125.99
LITEON DVD8900/DW1670 - £14.99
Logitech G5 Gaming-Grade Laser Mouse - £39.99
Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 - £27.99

Subtotal £974.02

Total inc VAT £1144.47

And I will get that system running faster +3GHz (for what I use it for quad core is overkill) and I've even been kind and not added my personal preference of keyboard and mouse onto the MacPro, which I *would* have to as there's no way I'm living with a crappy two button "Mighty Mouse" or a non-split keyboard.

OK, so there's two hard drives and two video cards in the Mac Pro, but they're ones I don't want or need. Even if I flogged them off I'd get £100 for the pair at most. I've already said that quad core is a waste for me currently and it is, so by being limited to having Xeons, I'm paying a premium for bugger all performance gain. By having a faster dual core CPU I get far better performance in the apps I use and the games I play for a LOT less money.

I can have that custom build PC running at least as quietly if nt quieter than the Mac Pro and I even prefer the looks! (Hey, it's a personal thing OK?)

So Basically, all the Mac Pro gives me that I CANNOT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD JOBS get with my PC is Mac OSX. £1,000 feels like a LOT of money to pay for OSX, no matter how good it is.

dan39

Hold on just a minute, now.

First off, the Mighty Mouse has 4 buttons on it. Not two. Not that I like the Mighty Mouse or anything, but let's at least be accurate here. The Mighty Mouse is engineered to have 4 buttons but to visually hide them so that the user doesn't experience that "paradox of choice".

I'll be the first to admit that the Apple Store's RAM upgrades are a complete rip off. Apple is clearly charging a premium on RAM upgrades. (My sense is that is pretty common among the major PC makers).

(Where are you seeing 2 hard drives as mandatory. I'm seeing an option for one.)

Anyway, I can see why a Mac is not for you. You like to build your own computers for very specific uses. While I (like a lot of consumers) prefer to pay a company to make me a computer for more everyday uses. (Some people prefer to buy their own pizza, I prefer for a pizza maker to make it for me.)

However, for the record, there are specialty companies that will sell you custom parts so that you can build your own Mac (or, at least upgrade it) with just about anything you please:

See:
http://store.fastmac.com/
http://www.macmod.com/
http://www.macsales.com/

But, I think there's a decent reason why Apple pushes you into certain hardware configurations. Apple offers full support on the hardware AND the software that they sell. I think it would be unrealistic for them to be able to sell and support all 3rd-party hardware with their own software and do it well. So, I look at the hardware lock-down as a good thing (from a QA/support and a "paradox of choice" standpoint), but I can certainly see why others would not.

Stash

Sorry about the mouse, I didn't realise. I just remember the big hub hub that happened when Apple enabled the use of "more than one button", that was all. I wasn't trying to be inaccurate here

I'm seeing 2 hard drives as mandatory because they don't offer my hard drive of choice in the first place, and they won't supply a Mac Pro without one... To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure why they *don't* offer the WD Raptor as a hard drive choice on what is basically a workstation given that it has the best workstation performance of any nonSCSI drive and better than most SCSI as well, but hey.

Regarding the RAM, well, I looked at getting it from somewhere else, www.crucial.com/uk in fact and it was MORE expensive! Again, because of what I view as an overkill CPU and motherboard they're forcing overkill RAM. It has long been argued that outside of some specific server uses, registered RAM just isn't necessary. I've just had a little more of a look around for FB DIMMs in the UK and I reckon Apple might be the cheapest to get them, so in fact, they're not a rip-off on the RAM for once :P The type of RAM in itself is a rip-off, not Apple's prices. But again, this is a choice they've made that I can't unmake. MacSales had 2x1GB FB DIMM RAM For the Mac Pro at $350, which is ~£184, so after shipping, sales and import duty I'm probably looking at more than UK prices anyway. Like I say, I think Apple are pretty on the money for the RAM actually.

You're quite right in your last paragraph, I completely agree. But that's why they aren't the perfect fit for everyone. There are also standard PC companies who do a similar thing to Apple (ignore the biggies, as Apple's not a comparable size to someone like Dell) and support a similarly limited hardware/software set - it's not something that's unique, they're just the most high profile one

Much as you can change what is in your Mac, you can't start with what you want, that's my issue. I'm not even suggesting they change. In your original comment you say However, the new Mac Pro was specifically designed to be completely reconfigurable to your own liking:, when you actually mean "very configurable" instead of completely. That's the difference

Frankly, I'm not sure why Apple doesn't do a "slower" Mac Pro that is based on a single CPU socket. That would be *very* interesting to a whole bunch of people like me

Stash

Biggest problem is the oldest for me, I can't run OSX on my PC, even unsupported. Why? Surely that would be the way to get the hardware manufacturers on board? A boatload of PC enthusiasts bitching and whining to hardware manufacturers would get some drivers for OSX, I guarantee it

dan39

That's an interesting point. (Who knows? Maybe it's not out of the realm of possibilities, now that they've dropped "computers" from their name). But, I still think they would want to avoid that avenue so that they don't have situations where an individual buys a computer, but leaves off options like Bluetooth or a webcam to save money and then hates the thing because the OS doesn't do as much.

The simplification of hardware is an attempt to avoid the Paradox of Choice mentioned above and to offer better support. It's not for everyone, but I think it's a good idea for the average user.

Stash

Definitely, and you're right that it's a good thing they don't give so much choice for those very reasons. Still, just about every enthusiast I know would *love* to have even an unsupported OSX to play with on their PC.

giginger

I'd love it if OSX was available for me to install (legally) on my computer.